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  • Well Water/Kinetico Frustrations

    We have a new house on a shallow well (36" diam, 50' deep, 20' of water, pump 11' off bottom, ~1000 gal ). We called a local Kinetico dealer to come out and provide us with a water analysis and an estimate. I thought the estimate was a high, but further research online revealed that Kinetico = quality. We decided to go with the quote.

    During the water analysis, I only recall the dealer running 3 tests. one came back clean and the other two were Iron and pH.

    Iron = 10ppm+ it was off his charts, so he wasn't completely sure what it was.
    pH = 2.5
    Does not have a smell beyond the high-iron


    Our system configuration installed 3.5 months ago - (Also, I had the hardest time finding prices online, so I'm posting here for the uninformed)

    Whole House ($4300 installed)-
    Kinetico Neutralizer (Uses calcite to solve pH so Iron Buster could do its job)
    Iron Buster (to remove iron, approved for up to 10ppm)
    Kinetico well-water softener (condition water and remove iron not picked up by iron buster)


    Point of Use ($1200 installed) -
    Kinetico K5

    The water is horrible. This configuration has failed considerably. The only thing that works well is the K5.

    Observed problems with the water.
    brownish/yellowish in tint
    stains everything it comes in contact with. toilets, clothes, dishwasher, sinks
    clear out of faucet, turns cloudy as it rests
    (we have since purchased iron and pH test strips)
    iron = .03 - .06
    pH = 6.5

    Without going into a tremendous amount of detail, the dealer is having health issues and as a result is going through bankruptcy. He's helped a little but is unreliable to say the least. When describing the issue to him over the phone, he believes the issue to be tannins. He has us run some tests to see what bleach does. It seems to attach to the tannins and fall out. He says to fix this we have to spend another $1,200 for a clorinator, retention tank and carbon filter.

    The dealer comes by to see how bad it "really" is. He's shocked at exactly how nasty the water really is. Apparently our water is some of the most challenging he's seen.. His comment: "If it were my well. I'd poor 2 gal. of bleach to try and get some of that stuff to fall out and recycle it for 2 days."

    We did 3 gal and honestly, it showed hope. The water was clear, not drinkable, but least it was clear. Perfect pH, zero iron, zero tannins. He was concerned about damaging the resin in the softener with bleach, so we bypassed the iron buster and the softener. In the house, it didn't even have a chlorine odor. At least it wouldn't stain everything. That in combo with the RO, livable.

    That lasted for 2 days. Water started getting a tinge of yellow... progressively got worse over a day. Began staining toilets again. Tried the process again... 1/2 gal bleach, didn't seem to improve. Tried 1 gal more (1.5 total). Small improvement, but it all seems very much like guesswork. (I've since read that shock chlorination is only good for disinfecting)

    I tried calling the dealer today and his VM box is full. During all this, the RO filters decided to give out. No drinking water now. I can't even get ahold of him to get filters and I can't find them online (which is just stupid)

    I'm at my wits end. I can't even get the water tested now because any results will be tainted by bleach. The dealer had 100% access to my water prior to me dropping $5500. He said $5500 worth of equipment would fix the problem. It didn't. While that may not seem like a lot to some, it's a lot for us. We seriously cannot afford to drop another $1,200... esp. w/o guarantees that it will solve the problem. I feel swindled. I asked about a refund and starting over... his mention of bankruptcy squashed that idea. I'm stuck.

    I know I've rambled...

    Any thoughts are definitely appreciated.

    DS

  • #2
    Sorry you having problems. But first can you review your test results. Are you sure the pH was 2.5? First of all Calcite is not recommended for pH under 5.5. It just won't work. Can you describe the Iron Buster a little more; how does it work? I mean what is the media? Is it an electric valve? Single tank? Does it have any other tnak connected to it? Etc.?

    What are the sizes of the three systems --tanks (d x h) or model number? Were these new or used?

    Need to know if your iron was ferrous (clear water) or ferric (red water) iron. Where are you located that has pH and iron as you described? What was your hardness reading?

    Tannins treated by chlorination??? I don't know where he gets that idea. You have to make sure it is tannins before attempting anything solution. Tint in water can be caused a by a number of things.

    Can you provide a picture of the equipment? The RO will work for a short time but will be damaged if the incoming water is not properly prepered.

    Get back with me and I'll try to help. All prices are too expensive if it doesn't work.
    Andy Christensen, CWS-II
    Last edited by Andy CWS; 03-04-2009, 09:26 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Andy - Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

      Where I live: A small NE Texas town called Dalby Springs. We're known for our water...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalby_Springs,_Texas

      Here's what strange. My in-laws have a shallow well nearly identical by spec to ours. Same depth, width, amt of water. It is only 120 yards away from ours. Without filtration of any kind, their well is completely livable. As a matter of fact we did live on their well while we built our house. Drinkable (understanding that "drinkable" is in the mouth of the beholder). The only thing we do/did not use it for is to make coffee... we use bottle water for that. But cooking, making tea, drinks, ice, etc. we've used it for years. Key difference... age of well. Our well is new, theirs is 50+ years old. I often joke with my wife that it is as though they drilled through a buried, rusty car to get these levels of iron.


      Further explanation of the equipment (pics referenced):
      It is my understanding that all equipment was new at install(3.5 months ago).

      Neutralizer (far left of pic):
      Pentair tank
      Size: 1354
      Width: 13"
      Height: 54"
      Media: Calcite
      Understanding of how it works: chemical reaction adjusts pH to a level condusive for removing iron.
      Correction to Original post: I assumed this to be a Kinetico Neutralizer. While it might be, there aren't any markings indicating such.
      Notes:
      - Original installation was failing to remove the iron and it was discovered the netralizer was not getting the water to an acceptable iron-removing pH (pH:5.5). As such, more media was added and flow was reversed in the tank to "increase contact time with the media". This resulted in a consistant level of 6.5.
      - Duing the shock process, I flushed the neutralizer by correcting the flow. I never was happy going against manufacturer's recommendations.

      "Iron Buster" (center of pic):
      Pentair tank
      Size: 1252
      Width: 12"
      Height: 52"
      Media: Unknown
      Understanding of how it works: With an acceptable pH, iron becomes filterable through oxidation. The oxidation process is facilitated with an electric valve with air intake. The valve also has a timer which regulates backwashing.
      Other Notes: Due to an initally botched installation, there was a significant amount of leaking during backwash. This explains the stains in the picture. The issue has since been resolved.

      Kinetico well-water softener w/brine tank (right in pic):
      Width: 8"
      Height: 40"
      Media: Kinetico Resin
      Understanding of how it works: The neutrilization process hardens the water. The softener reverses that affect. Additionally, any iron not removed by previous step is caught here prior to entering the house.
      Notes:
      - (pardon the ignorance) but the "gear" that controls backwash was replaced by a #3 gear, allowing for more frequent backwashes.


      re: pH
      My research had me doubting my own recollection of his result of 2.5... just seemed way low. So prior to my initial post, I strip tested the well water pre-filtration and it came back between 2.5 and 3.0... Consistent with my recollection of his initial findings. As mentioned above, more calcite had to be added to acheive 6.5

      re: iron
      Fe(+2) vs. Fe(+3): Honestly, I wouldn't venture a guess. Other than to say that my strips test for and detect "Fe(+2): Free/Dissolved"

      re: Tannins via chlorination:
      When I was doing research on "Tannin filtering" I found nothing on Chlorination. You seemed to have confirmed my findings.
      I have attached pictures of the tests he had us run. Whatever the issue, the pictures demonstrate that it's somewhat controlled with chlorine (color, not taste).

      control = water post filtration, pre-shock, from same faucet (let run for a while before sampled)
      Left Glass = control + 1 cap full of chlorine.
      Right Glass = control

      It was these pictures that prompted him to quote us a new chlorination system.

      All the old-timers around here kept telling me to "just pour some bleach down there". My primary concern with chlorine was that it would mask the actual, underlying problem if ever I ran tests. So I left it alone and let the "professionals" handle the job. But following his advice, the primary concern is now realized. If I'm understanding your response correctly, I ultimately need to get additional testing performed. It is my understanding that the chlorine needs to be flushed completely, so I'm 1-2 weeks out from that test.

      re: RO processing nasty water
      I had this exact concern. The water was literally ruining everything it came in contact with. I asked the dealer why I should expect any different with the RO system and I expressed concern with reduced filter life and overall lifespan. His response was that the filters are controlled via a flow meter and the membrane was warranteed for 10 years. He did qualify his statement "but of course that's assuming you have good clean Kinetico water going into the house." Comforting.

      DS
      Attached Files

      Comment


      • #4
        * Larger photo of System *
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Ornack,

          I just stopped in the office for a moment and read youy latest post. I want to make some comments bu don't have the time. i will try to get back with you tonight. I see some major problems there in design and implement. Also want to comment more on yourt pH reading.

          The plumbing looks that of DJ Dawson out of Beaumont???? Maybe?

          Talk to you soon. Thanks for the pics--tons of hekp there....

          Andy

          Comment


          • #6
            haha ... The company was out of Texarkana. But now I know who to avoid if I move the Beaumont...

            Thanks again. This has been a primary stressor in my family recently.

            Ornack

            Comment


            • #7
              First of all, the iron filter and neutralizer are not Kinetico units.

              Next, I am suspicious of the pH reading. Anything below 4.0 is most likely caused by mineral acids rather than acidic rain and the lack of limestone/marble in the earth at the source of water. I would never recommend an upflow OR backwashing calcite (or calcite/mag-oxide mix) tank on pH lower than 5.0. At those levels I would suggest a sodium hydroxide solution or similar chemical feed.

              Furthermore, an upflow tank cannot work with high amounts of iron (or sediment problems) due to the fact there is no backwashing ability to flush out accumulated particles or precipitants. It may collect in the bottom of the tank and restrict flow. Restricted flow means (beside poorer service supply) an inability for the valves to work to full capacity, especially during the backwashing stages.

              Can you determine your gpm flow rate at the well?

              Oh boy, even more. Your iron filter is leaking. I am not sure badly this affect the system but it is not a good sign. There may be other issues but I can’t tell with the limited or mysterious information given to date.

              Regardless, some major re-evaluation and changes will be required. Most importantly, get an accurate water analysis.

              Sorry to be the bearer of ill tidings.

              Andy Christensen, CWS-II

              Comment


              • #8
                So it appears the dealer truly did not know what he was doing and my initial assessment of being swindled was accurate. good to know.

                re: Iron Filter
                This leaked for a short time and only during backwash. This issue has since been resolved.

                re: pH reading
                I too have always wondered what the interfering factors were for pH. Those pH levels are that of lemon juice and sodas... The pH tests picking up the acidity in the iron (or some other mineral) makes sense.

                re: upflow tank
                Ok, how sad is it when you explain a concept to your supposed "professional" or "expert" and they completely dismiss the idea. Exactly what you said re: high iron and other sediments causing potential issues... I mentioned this EXACT thing to my dealer. Of course I didn't know how to solve it... what I said was something along the lines of..."Would it be better, with all the iron and other crap in the water, to have a rudimentary 'pre-filtration' before it ever gets to the neutralizer. like a carbon filter or something like that."

                re: gpm
                Background so you can determine if this skews my results.
                I don't have high volume faucets @ the well itself... but I do have both a filtered and unfiltered hydrants 120' away (by the house), each with dedicated 1" PVC stepping down to 3/4" @ hydrant.
                Unfiltered @ hydrant = ~25gpm (12 seconds to fill up a 5 gal bucket)
                Filtered @ hydrant = ~12gpm (25 seconds to fill up a 5 gal bucket)

                I run the above tests multiple times with the same bucket and the results were consistent.

                re: re-evaluation, changes, water analysis
                Help me figure out if my thought process is accurate...
                So that I can get accurate test results, I believe my next steps are to pump the well completely dry. If the chlorine test told us anything, it was that there is sludge at the bottom of the well as a result of the shocking. I have a sump pump I can put down there, hook it up to a hose and let it get that crap out... completely. Given recovery tests I performed when we first dug the well, I believe it will take ~ 2-3 hours to fully recover the 1000 gallons once dry. After that, there may be trace amounts of chlorine, but not enough to skew a water analysis.

                After that... get a water analysis and attempt to make a better assessment from there.

                With the extremes involved here, it would seem that the tricky part would be to determine what elements were interfering with other aspects of the test. e.g. extremely high iron causing pH to read low... or what is the TDS sans iron.

                -- OR --

                Accept the fact that I've been screwed... Take the nearly 15k loss (well and filtration) and run a pipe to my in-law's well... which is livable. What are the chances of me selling some of this stuff back to a different dealer or on e-bay? I'll keep the RO... and while I'm sure the dealer only paid a fraction of the $4300 he charged me, surely I could re-coup enough to pay for the PVC and ditch-witch to run lines to the other well.

                Thanks Again -
                Donald Sowell

                Comment


                • #9
                  oops, gave my real name in that last post. Hope I don't piss of the dealer if he reads this forum. What's he gonna do, screw me - not return my phone calls? Oh wait, he's way ahead of the game in that dept.

                  Donald Sowell

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I really appreciate your thorough and prompt responses. I wish more had your desire the find a solution, or at least an understanding.

                    Maybe we can work something out. I still wonder how the iron filter works, that is what the media is. Some media requires a pH level to be stable and near or above neutral.

                    I wonder if you reverse the sequence of the neutralizer and the iron filter if that would make a difference. The filter should improve water quality for the neutralizer. I still would have recommended a chemical feed system. As usual, there are pluses and minuses in each system.

                    One issue with up flow units is 'channeling'. This is where the force of the water moving through the media is not sufficien to move the bed around and let it reconstitute itself (repack). Water following the path of least resistence form channels through the media and the water passes through faster than it should and doesn't have sufficient contact to perform expected tasks--raising pH.

                    In other words, when you brush your teeth, the on-again, off-again of the water is too little to actively move the media bed. I have seen upflow units placed BEFORE the pressure tank. That way every ounce of water that passes through the media bed is full force. But this may be a moot point if you pH is really that low.

                    I'll stop for now...

                    Andy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Not so much a desire, more necessity. I have a spouse who's ready to move out of our brand-new house b/c of this issue and we have a dealer who takes a week or more to get back to us. I was the general contractor on my house and did as much as I could myself. It came at a cost. After "paying" as much as I was willing on this house, I was ready to outsource the water issue rather than spend countless hours researching the issue myself (kinda like now). It was my lack of desire in the beginning of the process that got me in this mess. If you want it done right...

                      Before I reconfigure anything, I'm going to move forward with flushing the well and testing the water.

                      What are your thoughts on a Chlorination/Aeration system... it seems like it would have been a potential solution in the beginning.
                      "Chlorination / Aeration will treat iron, iron bacteria, sulfur, sulfate reducing bacteria, manganese, algae, tannins, arsenic, and low pH."

                      Donald

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Doubt the dealer is willing to pay back on you system but you could try. How would you pump the well completely dry? I mean can that be done? Would it just dry up? Not sure how that might improve things as you have, by now, already run thousands of gallons. Even if you could, not sure the water quality would change or improve. Often wells are run when new to clear out loose sand and such so a cavity forms.

                        I have toyed with the idea of using multiple techniques like aeration and chlorination, combining them to fight really troubled water. But here present methods have proved sufficient. As with all new approaches, a trial and error may be required.

                        GET accurate water tests even before disassembly of your current system.

                        Aeration systems with extraordinarily high iron can cause issues as well as solve them. Massive amounts of precipitant and scale build-up on piping will need constant attention to prevent flow restriction.

                        Emphasis on pH analysis is essential. Even if you need a lab test, get those numbers accurate, too. Cheap, BigBox store test strips are not that reliable. Even pool kits can be improved on. It would be worth if for you to invest in some test equipment so that you can monitor it yourself.

                        You see, all those days in chemistry class you told yourself, "when will I ever need all this crap?"

                        We have a company in my area that always uses the pressure tank to use as a mixing tank for chlorination. I don't recommend that if at all possible. A separate mixing/retention tank takes more space (not a problem for you) but is it easy to maintain and clean out. Also, the size can be many time larger and thus more effective mixing/retention, which can mean less chemical use or more severe problem solving.

                        Nuff for now.

                        Andy
                        Last edited by Andy CWS; 03-06-2009, 09:07 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Donald. I need to know the plumbing from the well to the pressure tank and to each piece of equipment in specific order. And what size pipe. Is it all sch 40 PVC?

                          Do you have a submersible pump in the well? If so what gpm and hp?

                          Is the AN filter plumbed to the IN or the OUT on the head? You say you corrected flow... what did you do specifically?

                          Have you heard the word Corrosex used for the AN filter?

                          Is there a 1.25" or larger black/gray plastic plug on the rounded top of the AN filter tank?

                          When more mineral was added, what was it added to, the AN filter or Iron filter?

                          When water is tested for pH and it has iron in it, the pH reading can be off quite a bit.

                          Could you ask the dealer what media is in the iron filter or check on a brochure?

                          If you run water at the unfiltered hydrant, does it go clear after enough to flush rusty water out of the line? Is the water from the well usually clear or rusty?

                          Any oily film on the water like motor oil in a mud puddle? Use shallow angle glances across the surface.

                          Do you have any slime build up at or below the water line in any toilet tanks? It can be clear to rusty orangish reddish brown. Check wit ha finger tip and then flush and as the water goes down, wipe the plam of a hand on the inside of the tank from the water line down. You don't want it to feel snotty slimy. It should be covered with rust that wipes of easily.

                          While you're there, make sure the water level is about an inch below the top of the overflow pipe in each toilet.

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