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Thread: Double softener , double soft?

  1. #1
    Safecracker is offline Junior Member
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    Default Double softener , double soft?

    Okay, I gather from this forum that Kinetico is just another softener system out there but definitely NOT a DIY system. More oriented towards company installs and proprietary parts so it is not for me. How could it be better than everyone else if the technology is available for everyone?

    I WAS thinking of buying a new system and I had a Kinetico guy give me an estimate for a new system to get rid of Tannins , Iron and Sulpher gas as well as giving me soft water to the tune of $4000. What I found out was that the carbon would have to replaced in a year for about $500 and then there are filters to deal with among some of the extras needed down the road. The system would be warrantied for 10 years but it has to serviced by Kinetico.

    I will just revamp my old system and also thought about adding an additional water softener at the end of the system to give me two softeners. Is this overkill? I allready have the Softener tank , just have to add it in line.

    Does the water softener do any water filtering / cleaning as it goes through the system? I am learning what I read here so I will pay really close attention to what you write. My water is from a well , 16 hardness , 1.0 Iron, 42 TDS and Sulpher is 1.0 with tannins as well. The water comes through and leaves brown stains in the toilets and sinks and tastes terrible all though I don't drink it , I know it's not that good.

    ANY ideas here?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    A properly sized softener will take care of the iron and hardness and a backwashed carbon filter will take care of the rest.

  3. #3
    Safecracker is offline Junior Member
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    I figured that the extra softener would catch any other contaminates in the water, like iron before entering the house.
    Are you saying this extra softener would slow the water flow? i don't want that.
    As far as a Carbon filter, I don't have one of those. I understand that the carbon must be replaced every year or so? Is the carbon filter installed at the beginning or the end of the system?
    I gathered from the information here that the Carbon was costly as well to replace?
    What does the carbon do to the water? I have rotten egg smell and what seems like alot of iron by looking in my sinks and toilets but the Kinetico guy measured it and it was only 1.0 . It seems low but I don't have any thing to compare it to.
    Another probem I have is that when the system backwashes , whereever the water goes it turns reddish brown. Is there a good way to eliminate this unsightly area? I thought about digging a hole and running the drain line into it but it would have to be a big hole for all the time my pump runs.

    As far as prefilters go, I wondered if it is better to use a spin on cartidge type filter or a "Y" strainer type. I don't want to reduce the GPM flow rate but I want to catch any sand if any. I don't have any sand that I can see in fixtures but it would be more like a preventative measure.
    Thanks for the replies!
    Last edited by Safecracker; 03-01-2010 at 09:23 AM.

  4. #4
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    Unless you have noticable sediment I would not use a pre filter at all. Go into a properly sized softener and then a backwashing carbon filter for the odor problem. You could go with a charcoal canister filter but they are expensive to replace elements and they are a dandy environment for bacteria to grow in.

  5. #5
    Safecracker is offline Junior Member
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    Okay i will just take small steps and proceed with new developments along the way.
    Thanks for the quick response to my questions!

  6. #6
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    Default RE: Kinetico

    While not being DIY, the Kinetico will actually have a payback to it with regards to salt and water savings. It is much more efficient in both areas and you'll get 24/7 soft water without dealing with the guesswork involved with a single tank softener. IE: you don't have to worry about hitting your capacity level and waiting for 2AM to roll around to get back to soft water. With the twin tanks you are using soft water from one tank to regenerate the other so you can regenerate "on the fly" whenever your gallonage is used up...and beings that the water is soft you require less water and less salt to regenerate. That said, as long as you stay with a Fleck or Clack head and set it up for whatever your water conditions are you're golden. Just don't write off the Kinetico because someone who doesn't sell or undertsand them tells you to. They are more money but they have a payback time to them...especially on town water where you can use a 2040 and regenerate with only 1 lb of salt and 7 (or 11, I forget...but either way you win) gallons of water each time. Just food for thought. And if you have sulfur in the water Kinetico makes a Sulfurgaurd unit that uses carbon and a peroxide draw...and you would not need to rebed the carbon for many years.

  7. #7
    Safecracker is offline Junior Member
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    PA,

    Either way , that is a very low amount of water for backwashing. 7-11 gallons? That would be quite efficient , unfortunately for me I am on a well.

    I happenned to have an older ( 5years old) Sears water softener that I am not using . It was from another house and I thought about using that in addition to my existing softener so I would have two in line but I gather that this is overkill. Based on the description I am reading , wouldn't it be like having twin tanks?

    Also if one starts to act up or need repairs I could bypass it and repair while the other is still working.

    Just a thought.

  8. #8
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    Yes, that would be overkill. Two standard softeners do make a Kinetico system. Without going into too much detail...the 2 tanks on a Kinetico only work one a time. One tank is online and one is offline. When the online side reaches its capacity it regenerates (and goes offline) using soft/treated water from the formerly offline side. That offline side goes online and the process repeats. The process is called countercurrent regeneration and is part of what makes Kinetico unique and enables it to provide soft water 24/7 as opposed to a standard unit. On a well with iron I would use typically use a 2030 or 2060. You'd still use generally about 1/3 less salt as a standard unit. Obviously, water savings won't be an issue so it's a harder sell...but I just don't like seeing people who don't understand the unit condemning it to someone in order to sell them whatever brand they are selling. There is nothing wrong with a softener that uses a Fleck or a Clack head. I'd just stay away from the box store brands like WaterBoss. Around here anyway, the parts are a pain to get. That may not be the case everywhere though. And as far as sulfur goes...it's always tricky. I've seen different methods used...and the system that seems to work the best around here is the carbon/peroxide combo. Whatever you do, build yourself a 3 valve bypass and use a standard filter housing. Don't rely on the built in type bypasses. You'll thank yourself later for the small amount of extra plumbing the bypass takes. And, install a valve before and after the filter housing.

  9. #9
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    Hey Pawaterguy, don't let him get to you. He argues with everyone including the poor folks asking the questions. You have run into the self appointed know it all of the water filter world

  10. #10
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    SO, are you setting it up for days or gallons? I don't see what the 8 days has to do with anything if you're working with a meter. And, there's still a reserve...the computer is just calculating it for you. But, answer me on the reason as to why you felt the need to use the 8 day explanation. It tells me you're using a number of gallons per day in your head based on guesswork for how many gallons a person uses every day. In a meter situation that counts for nil.

  11. #11
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    Also, what are the rest of teh specs. 12 grains isn't enough to size a softener. But, with what we're working with you could use a disc 2. that would give you 329 gallons between regens. 2000/329=6 regens. 1lb of salt each time is 6lbs. 7 gallons x 6 = 42 gallons of water. The unit didn't care if the electric went off or how many people took long showers or when they took teh showers. It kept the water soft 24/7 and comes with a 10 years warranty. Now, tell me your resin tank size so I can do teh math on your unit without you tweaking it during setup to short salt or short cycle it to raise efficiency at the cost of the resin. Also, flow rate can be anywhere between 11 and 15GPM on the Kinetico. Oh, and teh flow rate doesn't change when one tank is regenerating. You could be lathering it up and never know the switch in tanks happened. I don't know why you have such a hard time admitting something other than your Clack is any good. As I said a few times now...there's nothing wrong with it (in fact it was a big step over even the fleck when it came out), but there is better out there.
    Last edited by pawaterguy; 03-10-2010 at 10:26 PM.

  12. #12
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    I double checked the specs on the old Clacks I used to sell...none of them matched up to your setup in their defaults. And, given the number of people in the house and 8 day spread you mentioned I have to believe you just over sized the unit itself and short cycled it to gain efficiency. It's really not in the best interest of the customer to do this....but if that's how you work that's fine.

  13. #13
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    What did I tell you? The Troll is never wrong even when he has no clue what in hell he is talking about. 13 years on the net screwing others and pissing off moderators

  14. #14
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    Pawater, some advice for you. Don't even bother with a response because anything you say is going to get another mindless argument. You will go around and around. You will be accused of saying things that you never said. Your posts will be taken out of context or not understood and in general you will just be wasting your time with someone that refuses to learn anything. The man is an egomaniac with delusions of grandeur.

  15. #15
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    What in hell do you care about spec sheets except when you are trying to bash someone elses product. because when it comes to your own products you have on countless occasions massaged the data to fit your own concepts or reality. Are you sure you are not a closet Liberal?

    basically folks what this mobile salesman would have you believe is that a company the size of Kinetico, a company that outsells his by probably a thousand to one or more, has no idea what they are doing and have produced a crap product that does not work. Of course there are thousands of satisfied Kinetico customers out there and the equipment does in fact perform as advertised but no, this mobile salesman knows more than the engineers at Kinetico or any other company for that matter. Doooooooooh

  16. #16
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    So basically there are what, two, maybe three forums that still put up with your crap yes? Yes. Oh you tried at diychatroom but they shut you down over there pretty fast. Yea I do remember how you managed to get all those PROFESSIONALS, guys that have worked in the field for years banned all because of your back handed lies and baiting tactics for which you are indeed the undisputed master. So what's left? Note how with the exception of Terry's forum I am still a member of many many forums. I have not been banned or warned off any of them. You on the other hand have been booted off how many? 3 according to you but it's closer to 9 when I start going through them all.

  17. #17
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    NH, Master....I see that now. I think I proved my case. The only way he can touch my specs is by "cheating" with an oversized unit. We'll see how that works out for the customer when his resin dies prematurely. Plus, when I sell a system it's a package to take care of all aspects of the water in the home. From removing chlorine in town water to an RO for the drinking water. I'm not there to offer the cheapest option and just sell a softener. They'll get a 3 valve by-pass and a prefilter on every install and a 10 year warranty. Little things that guys that just want to be cheap generally don't provide.
    Last edited by Andy CWS; 02-17-2011 at 12:25 PM.

  18. #18
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    First off I ain't being played because I ain't playing. I'll leave that circus to you and your buddies.

    Second off it is YOU that started the whole thing, not only with me but everyone else also. Yes YOU. I tried on countless occasions to get you to lay off with the personal attacks, badgering, insults and so forth and now that you are getting it handed back it ain't so much fun is it. I said it before and I'll say it again right here so everyone can read it instead of in a PM. When you can present your argument without belittling, badgering, badmouthing, harassing and arguing with EVERYONE then I will gladly lay off. But until then, I'm gonna keep right at it. Even if it is good for your sales. And, BTW not one single person, either professional or non has ever said anything to me about my behavior that was not positive. You forget that I am a member of a whole bunch of forums. A respected and helpful member at that. I have never been booted of any other forum than Terry's. No excuses, no BS, no lies. Not a single one other than Terry's.

  19. #19
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safecracker
    Okay i will just take small steps and proceed with new developments along the way.
    Thanks for the quick response to my questions!
    I suppose we lost you a long time ago. Not sure if your inquiries were resolved. What has been typical in other forums is quickly becoming standard here. Perhaps the same end result will happen. I apologize for the convolution and that your clear focus points digressed to more than just simply blurred. Such is the way of a blight caused by pestilence

    Good luck and contact me privately if you wish.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  20. #20
    NH Master is offline Senior Member
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    Did you guys hear something?

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