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Thread: 2002 Kinetico 4040s - issue?

  1. #21
    hanford homer2 is offline Junior Member
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    Well, a few days ago my dealer was trying to get my issue cleared up so he offered to send over a couple of techs. He said they may not be able to figure out what the problem is. There was a scheduling conflict for me being there when they are there, etc. Fionally he asked me if we could just keep it between him and me, even though it will be 3 weeks before the 2 of us can meet. I said I would be willing to work with him on that so we have an appontment in 3 weeks. He is on vacation then I am on vacation, etc.
    As of this writing, we still are getting enough black powdery material past the unit that is lodging in the bottom of the first afterfilter. Enough now to cover 2 dimes. Dealer said he has never seen what I am describing??) the 2nd afterfilter is also gray (not as but definitely compared to the filter coming into the house). Haven't noticed there being any blackish material on the bottom of this filter. I am thinking at this point that we are either getting crap out of the discharge of this unit that has been building up for some time now (we don't have any clue as to whose or what kind of supply water has been in this rental unit before now) or maybe the carbon bed has gone completely haywire (has been 10 years now and the salesman told me initially it was good for about 10 years???) My dealer is now telling me maybe he might have to take the unit out and do something to it (duh???) . My observation is that I believe no matter what model of NEW Kinetico they put into our house if we decide to purchase new, it should leave a white afterfilter perfectly intact for a good number of years, is that correct? Is that too much to assume or expect? Big question now is, "is the discharge of carbon powder (if that is what it is) create a resperatory hazard or skin hazard of some sort as we are breathing the mist and getting the water all over us in the shower? Also, he mentioned that his unit has confirmed that we now have soft water.....however, we have a brand new hot water tank as of a week ago. The water in the cold line is perfectly soft but the water coming out of the hot water tank has about a grain or so of hardness. What is in the tank that this happens? I have heard before that is normal but why does soft water go into the tank and comes out less than soft.? I know, lots of questions but am getting a bit frustrated but not willing to throw in the towel just yet? msp

  2. #22
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    Sometimes it's as easy as the deposits in the pipes themselves attributing to the 1 grain hardness on the hot side. It may take years for that to go away completely. The carbon in the filter issue...it takes a little while for the black issue to slow down on a new unit. Kinetico has helped the problem by using an acid washed carbon now that gives off less of the fine stuff...but it will still grey the filter up a bit for a little while. As a general rule I always tell people that for the first year they'll be changing the filter more often than they will in years to come...with more time passing between each change until you settle into the routine that will fall into place eventually. But, if it's enough to actually accumulate on the bottom of the housing then there's a larger issue at hand. The distributor tube would be my first point of interest to make sure it's intact.

  3. #23
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    The carbon will cause no known health issues. It is strange that the carbon is finding its way through the very tightly packed fine mesh resin bed as the resins should act a 5-10 micron filtration. Unless, it is plumbed in backwards or the tank medias are reversed. And NO you should not see any residue after the softener.

  4. #24
    hanford homer is offline Junior Member
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    Well, I was calling it resin and he said it sounded like carbon instead. he said the resin is tiny beads that appear a bronze color or so. I said this is more like a fine fine powder (when dried) and is most certainly black. But it is heavy enough that it stays in one place right at the bottom of the filter rather than getting imbedded into the sides of the filter. I might add that they didn't give me any after filter at all. Only filter they supplied me with is the clear yellow casing string wound filter that protects their unit from things that enter my house. No concern about what leaves their unit and into my tank heater, etc. As far as the pipes themselves contributing to the hardness, I test my water about 10 feet from the water heater (for the hot side), 1/2" copper pipes that had city water (not soft) water in them for the first 5 years but soft for the last 2-1/2. It was a new house and the insides of the pipes appear pretty good shape.

  5. #25
    hanford homer is offline Junior Member
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    As of today I am amending my opinion of what I think the material is that has been being trapped in the filter directly after their unit. It is about 60 to 70% bronze/copper colored and the balance thoroughly mix of dark gray/black. Consistent size/shape and now I am convinced it is the resin from the unit rather than carbon. As of today I can easily cover 3 to 4 dimes with what is trapped on the base of the clear filter casing. Now what is your assessment of what I have going on and what do you think the remedy is? thanks for your continued efforts to help people. msp
    Last edited by hanford homer; 08-05-2011 at 09:25 AM.

  6. #26
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    It sounds like the upper basket that prevents resin from getting through may have a small crack in it...or the riser tube may also be cracked. Not enough to get gushers but enough to let small amounts accumulate over a short period of time.

    Disassembly of tanks would be required. There is really no other way this could be happening to the best of my knowledge except that an o-ring within the valve or remote bodies where the rise tubes are affixed is missing or severely worn (very unusual unless someone took it out). Removing the riser tubes and sticking your finger up there, you should be able to feel it.

    Andy Christensen

  7. #27
    hanford homer is offline Junior Member
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    well we will see on Friday when we confront the evidence. Now, for another topic, where do i ask a question about what that pink, slimy stuff is inside the toilet bowl (not the tank but the bowl, just from the water line down). As well as the white carpet outside the shower and along the bottom inside of the shower as well. Wipes and rinses right off but comes back within a week or 2. Is this something the softener should be filtering out? Does anybody know what this is and how to combat it?? thanks for directing my question to the right location.......msp.

  8. #28
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    Usually, the pink stuff is an airborne bacteria. Harmless.

  9. #29
    hanford homer is offline Junior Member
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    Well, this morning was crunch time. We showed the owner of the unit what we have captured in the filter for the last 5 weeks. He said he didn't know what it was. He said it is super smaller than the carbon granules (he showed us a sample of the carbon) and that the resin is even larger than the carbon (didn't have a sample of resin but said it is similar to bb's and that gave me a graphic picture I could deal with and accept) He said what we have is neither but he took the filter and a sample of what we have captured back to his people and will find out what it is. In the meantime, his plan is to call us the first of the week when his people get back and arrange to have a brand new unit installed in our home next week. Am able to enclose a few pictures of what we captured as well as the filters themselves?? How do I do this?? Maybe someone can make some sense of this here as well as tell us what it is we have. Not sure we will truly hear what we have back from them.

  10. #30
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Photobucket and other sites lets you up-and download photos free of charge.

  11. #31
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    gotta admire your patience in all of this. there's no way I would have gone this long without some kind of resolution. cheers to you for that.

  12. #32
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Like this?

  13. #33
    hanford homer is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy CWS View Post
    Like this?
    yes, exactly like that. I see, now, I believe. It is in the upper part of this message window. Just click on the image and then upload the image from my computer. Out for the weekend but upon my return I will load a pic of what we captured. thanks to you all (both) for helping me here. Murrel

  14. #34
    hanford homer is offline Junior Member
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    2nd after filter.jpgbottom of 1st filter.jpgbottom of 2nd filter.jpgDSC03656.jpg Here is a start.
    You will notice that the granules are many times smaller than the end of a pencil point. You will also notice that they all appear uniform in size and appearance. There was originally more gray/black matter mixed in with the copper/bronze matter. It does have weight to it as it did pool up on the bottom of the filter canister. I was told that the material (black) also on the yellow paper is the charcoal that is in the unit. It is similar to that within a fish tank filter. I was told that the resin is about the same size (about the size and shape as air gun bb's. Is that correct??) Would it make sense that what I am looking at is a mixture of bits and pieces of worn out charcoal and resin after water has gone thru the filters and beat them up against each other for 9 years or so and they have made their way past a normal screen that is sized only for new resin/charcoal?? Would putting in a normal screen on these units keep this fine stuff contained?? Or what is the thinking at this point?? thanks. msp
    note: today I uploaded a couple more pics. They show the 1st "after" filter that caught most of everything, front as well as bottom of it, the 2nd after filter (front as well as bottom), and of course the culprit itself. msp
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by hanford homer; 08-24-2011 at 09:34 AM. Reason: add pics

  15. #35
    hanford homer is offline Junior Member
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    well, today is the day to get a brand new unit. we'll see. here is the unit we are going to replace. And of course the filter system we have had in place for about 2 months now. The tag on the unit says Quad 50.DSC03660.jpgDSC03661.jpg

  16. #36
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    This was a temporary setup if I recall, right? A trial? Otherwise I'd run from anyone who tried to install anything for me that way...with the braided connectors and all. Also, just as an FYI...I don't think Kinetico has used the 50 model number for quite some time which tells me a bit about the age of the unit.

  17. #37
    hanford homer is offline Junior Member
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    Well, I said early on that the original rental unit indicates it is 9 years old or so. So I can believe they haven't used it in quite some time. Yesterday they brought the new unit. Looks new and all. Quite a bit of difference in the quality of the water already. We were told to wait a week or so for the fines in the charcoal system to settle. then I will change the after filter. I installed all those extra hoses myself because they were easy to use and easy to get to do what I wanted to do which was isolate where the problem in their faulty unit was. they certainly weren't going to do any research for me, right??? When all is settled out and I am convinced this new unit is working correctly, I will get rid of some of those filters. But as long as I'm getting crap I will continue to use it in this design.

  18. #38
    pawaterguy is offline Senior Member
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    Gotcha. Hope the new unit works out. I'm sure it will do a great job for years to come.

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