2002 Kinetico 4040s - issue?

Not sure how much room I have but here goes. We are presently test-driving (renting with the prospect of buying new, if it proves out) a 2002 Kinetico 4040s that has most recently been in service at the dealership used to fill their bottled water for sale. We have had a 2 year old Water Boss that seems to not work all the time. So, Kinetico hooked up their rental unit (said it has never had the media or charcoal replaced and has been used recently to bottle water for sale) and they flushed one side but admitted later they forgot to flush the other side. 2 days later I cleaned both toilets spotless and right after that, the unit switched and regenerated. We heard it going. I finished flushing the toilet and saw a lot of nasty mess coming into the toilet. Gray and goopy in some places. But plenty murkey. Thought what in the world?? It did seem to clear up more and more as time went on. Ended up in both toilets, sinks, etc. So, we called the co-owner of the kinetico store to the house and he looked at it and said he thinks the second unit didn't get flushed initially but it should be ok. Said he fills his water bottles for sale from it. Checked and it is still soft and cannot detect any chlorine in it. We have now had it in our house 1+ month and are not too happy about the color of the water. I cleaned out the hot water heater completely a week ago and then filled it up. An hour later we filled the tub and it was again full of murky water. Drained the tub and filled it again out of the cold side. Was almost crystal clear. Here's what we were thinking...one side of the softener has a damaged charcoal bag/bed. Everytime it fiils the water heater, it blows junk into it and then we're getting that carbon junk in everything from the shower to the wash machine. So, here's what we have just done....we bought a new inline, clear GE filter between the Kinetico unit and the house piping system. They have their clear yellow string wound filter before their unit but nothing after it. We now have our GE inline filter after the unit. I drained and vaccuumed out the water heater 2 nights ago and then filled it with the Kinetico unit. Starting with a brand new white filter in our inline filter, within minutes it was starting to take on a gray color. Now 2 days later and 2 complete cycles of the 4040s, our pearl white filter is now dingy dark gray which is telling me that carbon is getting past their Kinetico unit and getting stuck in our filter. Filling the tub results in near clear water and doesn't seem to be any reduction in flow rate thru the filters. So, my question is what do you think the problem with the dark gray filter is?? Shouldn't everything coming out of their unit be crystal clear?? shouldn't my filter be pearl white 2 days (or 2 months) later?? What could be the problem with their unit? Is all this common with a 9 years old unit? Should we expect anything different if we had a brand new Kinetico 4040s?? Is there any harm in having an inline filter right after their unit? If we're trapping a goodly amount of carbon in our new filter, is there a chance there could be some getting beyond the filter? I am reasonably sure that there is absolutely nada coming into the house from the city system because I had the same filter there plus theirs is still clear yellow. Can you help me make some sense of all this?? thanks. Msp

I've said it before. Never use a 4040 where you can use a dechlor and 2040 separately. Use a dechlor first. Follow with a prefilter housing and then into the 2040. only use the 4040 if space dictates no other options.

With all due respect, if you will reread my posting, we are renting right now so cannot necessarily dictate to the dealership what we get. But because space seems to be a factor also, that is what they recommended. What we have right now is "their" stringwound filter in yellow housing before the 4040s and my white inline filter in clear housing immediately after the 4040s and from there it goes into our house piping system. So, now armed with this new information, can you give some constructive answers to my direct questions? thanks. msp

"with the prospect of buying" is the part I saw. If you're going to invest in it...then make sure it's a wise investment. One of the things with those tanks (unless they are giving you a warranty) is that if the distributor tube cracks or fails in general you can't replace them without replacing the whole tank which makes it expensive. And, from a service perspective they are a pain compared to individual units. Just an opinion from one who works on them. Take it for what it's worth.

thanks, pa. No, we would not be buying this particular unit. no way. But may be inclined to purchase a new one like it. I'm getting the impression from you that the declor unit is itself full of carbon and its only purpose is to take out the chlorine that then flows into the 2040, is that it? So there will be no chlorine to damage the resin in the 2040 prematurely? I understand that part. But I am trying to focus on the reason we may be experiencing the grayness (I mean darrrrk gray) from an after-filter that has been in there for no more than 2 days. The unit has cycled twice so I think it has gone thru 600 gallons of water, approx. I certainly wouldn't want my little girl to have her picture taken drinking a glass of water with that filter in the foreground. Can you address those questions, please. I would consider your stand with the declor/2040 when it comes time to purchase. But what could likely be causing what we are seeing??? Doesn't look appetising. msp

troubleshoot it and use the process of elimination. bypass the system and see if it clears up. if it doesn't...start with the filter/s. remove them from the housings and see if it clears up. it may be as easy as the carbon having been disturbed in the move and the "stuff" it has caught is now coming through until it settles again. congrats on getting rid of the waterboss, though. that was a big step in the right direction as far as your investment in treatment goes.

yeah, you're probably right about the water boss. when I thoroughly cleaned out the water heater (vaccuumed it too cause I'm really trying to troubleshoot and eliminate) I found a lot of shiny resin I believe as I rinsed it several (about 12) times. Think a lot of its resin just went out of the unit over time (2 years). My thoughts are that without these white filters in the housings, I can't really tell if the water is super clear. With the filters in there, I can see they are really gray looking. When we filled the tub prior to the after filter, the tub was really looking like pond water. Since the gray filter, the tub water is pretty clear. Do you think there is a lot of carbon material coming out of their unit and getting stuck in our filter? I'll see if it does clear up in the next 2 months. If you think it should clear up and there is nothing really wrong with their unit, I'll put in the time and keep buying filters to monitor it and keep you posted. thanks for your help. msp

well, a new dechlor will blacken/grey up filters as the carbon fines come through. a dechlor that is 10+ years old will also built up alot of "gunk" from acting as a filter in addition to removing chlorine. you would be amazed to see the water that comes out of a dechlor unit when you rebed it. it's usually pretty disgusting looking. I think you have a good chance of it just settling down over time and eventually being much better.

ok, pa. Let me nail this down, please. I have been thinking the dechlor unit (or 2nd compartment on the 4040 if you will) has on its inside a large 'bag' of charcoal pellets much like you may see in a charcoal filter for a fish tank. We are thinking that this 'bag' has been torn somehow and is letting charcoal crap thru to our hot water tank or cold water lines. Is this incorrect? Is it instead nothing more than a fine molecule charcoal bed sort of like a French Press coffee maker?? So, you would normally get some coloration or fines thru for a period until it just settles down? Please get me settled down that it isn't some out of control "hole" in the bag that is just continually spewing charcoal out into our house piping that is only going to get better if we buy a brand new unit. excuse my ignorance but sometimes "specific" troubleshooting gets a bit anal and it helps to be able to break it clear down into basic things. thanks. msp

No bag. Just loose carbon. There is a tube with an end that acts as a screen to keep the pieces from coming through...the same type used in a softener to keep resin from blowing through...and as you said, you'll get some small loose stuff through at first til it settles. Generally nothing to worry about.

thanks, pa, you've been most helpful. msp

To answer your question: yes the water coming out should be crystal clear. This is an upflow model, meaning the water enters the bottom tanks (carbon) and then up through the resin tanks. You mentioned how the dealer used this unit for 'drinking water service'. This means it was used in a commercial application regardless of how much water was passed through it.

My guess is the resins are fouled or gummed up with some contaminant. Make extra sure it is not plumbed in backwards. This can be rebedded with both (fine mesh) resins and carbon. It also requires a prefilter.

Andy Christensen

thanks, andy. we'll give it a week or so to start clearing up and then get back with the guy and confront him with the 'evidence'. We want to be enjoying clear water as well. msp

Always save a sample in a clean, clear bottle. Date it.

Well, here;'s what I did so far. Right after I talked to you both, I installed a white filter cartridge in the clear filter casing that is before Kinetico's yellow string wound filter. (We had removed the cartridge when they installed their unit as we thought we might be impeding the flow......flow rate for 2 gallons of water is unchanged since) This is so nobody can say that something that got into the discharge side of their Kinetico unit and lodged in our white filter was somehow so small it found its way thru their yellow unit and then got trapped in ours. Now, the filter coming into the house before their yellow unit and the filter coming out of their unit are exactly the same. Now, it is definitely coming from their unit. I changed our filter and saw enough softener media (gold, shiny balls......tiny) you could cover half of a dime. That is just in 3 days, approximately 600 gallons of water. Now about 400 gallons of water since, there is the same amount of media at the base of the new filter and the filter began turning grey almost immediately! Obviously they have some sort of a continuing problem with their softener leaking media. Wonder how much media they actually still have in the unit if they have never changed the media or carbon in 9 years and aren't in the business of admitting they even have a problem with their machine.........that they use to fill their water for sale??? My next move is to install a second inline filter (exactly the same) after my other one so I will have 2 inline filter after their unit........to see if anything is getting thru my first discharge filter. should be quite evident I would think. As far as getting a sample, the water appears to be clear and he says it costs him $2500 to send a water sample in once a year so don't expect him to be too anxious to send in my sample....... :-) whatcha think of my plan?

It is very possible the resin screen(s) in the softener are broken or the rise tube is cracked--even just a little will let some resin to come through. These screens are even finer than standard softeners' because the quad uses a fine mesh resin. This is a used unit and it needs attention, READ: rebuild. Or at least inspected. Be careful doing it yourself as these beds are packed and when you take the valve off, resin pours out the top even if it has been depressurized. So work in a place where the resins can be contained, a very large plastic tub.

Since this is on a trial basis, let them do it. Boy, I don't understand the $2500.00 charge for a water sample. Is that EPA?

Andy Christensen

Absolutely will not do it myself. We just want our ducks to be in a row when we show him the grey filters as well as the dried, dark resin we have retrieved. Just want to convince ourselves that the first "after" filter is doing its job. Catching the resin after it escapes. If the 2nd filter remains white and no carbon/resin traces, then it will tell me the filter is small enough to catch that stuff and we will definitely consider putting one on the discharge of the unit if we decide to buy a Kinetico unit. And one would think for $2500 they would include a report that he has small amounts of escaped Resin in the water as well.

I think you are approaching this correctly. Unfortunately, the unit provided for you has some problems and they seem to be internal. it is a good system but must in one piece and set up properly. Send me an email and I can send you some data.
awc222@yahoo.com
Please put Kinetico in the title.

It sounds like he knowingly or unknowingly unloading his problem on whoever is willing to take this thing off of his hands. I would run the other way. I know the 2040's are such that you can't replace the distributor tubes...you have to replace the whole tank (I think I mentioned it earlier)...and I think the 4040 is the same way so there is no real "cost effective" way to rebed and replace the distributors. Especially on a unit that is out of warranty. I'm sure Andy will steer you in the right direction, though. He knows his stuff. I am also stumped as to his fee for testing. Sounds like he's testing per his regulations as a bottler...not all of which pertains to you as a residential user.

that's correct, pa. He just told us it costs him $2500 to make sure the bottled water he sells is primo. So, he was reluctant to be able to tell us of what all was in our water or from our other house other than it is soft and it has no chlorine. But remember we aren't buying this unit. Just renting. I wouldn't buy this unit on a bet. In 2 days have enough resin now collected in this filter to cover a dime. Have about one more card to play before I tell him to go pound sand.