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Thread: Tannins- Best way to remove them?

  1. #1
    Sean is offline Junior Member
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    Default Tannins- Best way to remove them?

    Area in Minnesota has a .05ppm level of tannins in the water (apparently caused by local forests). Tim currently goes through three 5-micron 2.5"x20" polypropelene sediment filters (the Liqutech SDF-25-2005) per month. He has a water softener as well.

    Is there a better way for him to be removing the tannins from his water?

  2. #2
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    It is pssible to remove tannins from water through an ion exchange process similar to that of a softener. Softeners use a cation resin to remove calcium and iron, primarily.

    The difference is, you need to use an anion resin to remove tannins. This resin can also be regenerated with salt. A regular filter will have no effect. In some cases, the anion resin can be added to the softener but some calculation must be made to offset the change in the volume of the resins and the amount of salt used. Some adjustments may be needed.

    At 0.05 ppm tannins, your level is not very high and it can be easily handled.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  3. #3
    Gary Slusser is offline Banned
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    That amount of tannin wouldn't usually cause a problem. No disposable cartridge filter will remove tannins or anything else that is dissolved into the water as a soluble.

    If this water is causing staining problems, it's more likely due to iron than the .05 ppm of tannins that were found.

    So what is the rest of the water analysis data and what problems is the water causing?

  4. #4
    Tim Woods is offline Junior Member
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    Default Thanks for Info

    Sean/Andy?Gary
    Thanks first off all to Filters fast, great Customer service!

    I live in Central Minnesota in a really old Oak Forest, I have a Kinetico Turbo water Conditioning syetem with in addition to a Kinetico Resin based Tannis Filter that uses a salt tank for regen process. On the front end of all this I have a 5micron whole house filter that I change weekly, it is brown completly when I change it. I do use a pro Soda ash once a month to try keep the softner/tannis filter clean. The reason I have the hole hose filter before the softner/filter is to try to increase the life of my system. My question is there a better whole house filter I should be using? I think my system works good, but I am always looking for a better solution. The discharge hoses of the softner/Tannis filter are clear and the system has been working for about two years now. So that being said, Andy/Gary what do you think? Also the 0.5 tannis number came from the previous owner, I think the number is higher but dont know for sure!

    Thank You !

    Tim

  5. #5
    Sean is offline Junior Member
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    I just passed on the question to these guys who are experts and volunteer their time. Much thanks to them.

  6. #6
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    I am not familiar with the "TURBO" model you state. Perhaps it is called another name. ould you find out what that is, by chance?

    Is the prefilter a Kinetico brand or generic. 5 microns is most likely to tight a configuration.

    Is the tannin count 0.05 ppm or 0.5ppm? Tannin levels could change with season depending on how the source water is collected.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  7. #7
    Tim Woods is offline Junior Member
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    The Kinetco system is called the Mach Series/ Overdrive it has two hour glass shaped kinda tanks then the salt tank. The Tannis filter is round and about 30 inches high with a salt tank as well. The pre filter is just a generic 5 micron filter 2.5 X 20 in a blue casing. I will try to find out my Tannis number but I know it has to be high, all of my trees where the sprinkler hits them are orange and I remember the Kinetco salesman saying that the Tannis level was alot higher than the iron. Do you think I should use a 20 or higher micron filter? I really apprecate any and all help I can get.

    Thanks

    Tim

  8. #8
    Gary Slusser is offline Banned
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    Orange stains says iron, not tannins but... are you treating the irrigation water with your equipment?

    You need current before and after the equipment water test data.

    The 30" tall tannin filter is on the small size. The SFR (Service flow rate), say <4 gpm, meaning that every time you use more water than 4 gpm in the house, the filter can not remove all the tannins etc..

    Too much soda ash ruins anion/tannin resins.

    The same SFR problem can happen for the softener/filter hourglass over/under softener.

    I find that most Kinetico and other national brands are usually undersized for the peak demand gpm of the house.

    That prefilter you have, it will be reducing your water flow/pressure and that prevents the best backwashes and regeneration of equipment and leads to failure and replacement of the resin or filter media.

    Your Overdrive, is that the control valve or the four tanks part?

    If it means the type of control valve, that means you get water through all four hourglass shaped tanks at the same time until the unit goes into regeneration. If the Overdrive is about the over/under combo type configuration of the tanks (hourglass shaped), which I stopped selling like 15 years ago because they don't work well, then you only get water through one side of the unit while the other side is in standby.

    If the control valve type allows water through both sides at the same time, then when it is in regeneration, you have half or less of the SFR gpm of the unit.

    Regardless of the type of control valve, you always share your water use gpm with the water flowing to the drain line of the softener during regeneration. That is not a good thing because the gpm of the water you are using will probably be higher than the SFR gpm of the equipment and that means that every time you exceed the SFR gpm you get hardness iron and tannins etc. right through the equipment. So you may want to stop using water during regenerations.

    If Andy will (he usually won't) he should be able to tell you all about that better than I can, he sells Kinetico and I don't.

    So what problems are you having with this equipment other than the rust stains on the trees?

    How old is this equipment?

  9. #9
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Thank you for the updated information. Just a couple of more questions. Kinetico makes a variety of models that fit your description. You may have the particular model name and number. 4040, 4060? Resin is in two of the tanks, what is the media in the other tanks?

    Kineticos are not normally undersized. There is always a chance that proper testing was not done or the wrong piece of equipment was given a task it can't perform, but speced correctly, they are fine pieces of equipment. Any company can be laxed in tesing or application.

    It is important to determine if you have ferric iron coming from the well. Overdrive does not refer to tank configuration.

    At first you said the tannin filter is a Kinetico but your most recent discription say it is "round and 30" tall". If it is a twin tank design, then it is most likely a Kinetico.

    Tannins can leave stains on some surfaces.
    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  10. #10
    Tim Woods is offline Junior Member
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    Default More info/and Thanks

    The Model number is Mach 4060 OD MACROLITE SN#01662533, on the twin hour glass type tanks. The Tannis filter is a 824 Kinetico about 30 inches high with its own salt tank. My understanding is the Mach 4060 is a Iron filter and Softner in one system, and the Tannis filter is filled with a resin ??. As far as ferric iron I believe I do, when I change the 2.5X20 5micron prefilter there is always a little chunck or two. I will look to see if I can find out the actual Tannis number, but for a fact the Hardness = 11.0000 and the Iron = 8.0000
    My sprinklers run straight out of the well with no filter/softner.

    I really do appreciate any and all help I can get this equipment is expensive and I what to makke it last.

    Thank you again

    Tim

  11. #11
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Tim, thanks, that helped.

    Macrolite is used for ferric iron application and other sediment issues. It is an exclusive filter media of Kinetico that filters down to 3-5 microns. You say your total iron is 8.0 ppm, I believe. 11 means 11 grains per gallon, right for hardness?

    The key is to determine the total amount of ferrous versus ferric iron. That 4060 model is designed to take considerable amounts of ferric but is recommended at only 1 ppm ferrous iron.

    The 4060 model is a great piece of equipment but quite restricted in its correct application. Tannin resins are an anion resine and are usually white in color.

    Have you tested the water after the system.

    I am not at all aware of Kinetico making a single tank, backwashing, salt-regenerating filter. Maybe the local company put a Kinetico sticker on it. Sorry. 824 probably indicates 8" diameter and 24" height.

    If your sprinklers are running straight from the well and you want to rid the iron stains, then a food grade polyphosphate feeder may be the answer. We install those on nice homes where sidewalks are getting stained from irrigation systems.

    Let me stop here and wait for your nexrt message.
    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  12. #12
    Tim Woods is offline Junior Member
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    Default Andy

    Wow, this is the first time I have heard that Tannis shows up as white!! I have been told tea colored water indicates the Tannis level. That being said I have good clear water at the tubs/stools/faucets of my house today, I have four people in the house and I change the 2.5X20 inch 5 Micron filter once a week, the 5micron filter is first in the line, next the softner/iron filter then the Tannis filter. The 5micron filter I pull out each week is totaly brown, and as stated a couple of chunks. I have had the water tested after all the filters and she said there was only a very very small trace of tannis. Am I hurting the system by having the 5micron in? We have a outdoor hot tub and It holds 660 gallons of water, I can fill it with good clear water each time. Also as stated I use Pro Soda Ash maybe once a month is that right or wrong. Our water pressure is ok at best. We are happy with the current system it is giving us great soft/clear water for the household. I will look into the system you spoke of for the sprinkler system. So what am I doing right and whay am I doing wrong.. Thank you very much for taking the time to help us!!!!

    Thanks

    Tim

  13. #13
    Gary Slusser is offline Banned
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    Tim, how long have you had this equipment?

  14. #14
    Tim Woods is offline Junior Member
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    Default Gary

    Two years the equipment has been in service..

    Thank you

    Tim

  15. #15
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Sorry Tim. The tannins resins (little beads in the tank) are white, not the staining caused by tannins which are typically as you stated.

    Prefilters can last a long time depending on water conditions. Just because they have turned brown, doesn't mean you need to change them. It indicates they are doing their job. In fact filters become more efficient as time goes on until a point of diminishing returns sets in.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  16. #16
    Gary Slusser is offline Banned
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    Tim, Andy is saying that Macrolite filters down to 3-5 microns and are used for rusty water filtration.

    If your water from the well is clear, I would ask why the Macrolite filter, and then what is the need for the prefilter with its expense and additional pressure loss?

    He is also saying that it is easy to misapply Macrolite, which sounds as if it has been in your case. It has if the water from the well is clear.

    All waters contain some DO (dissolved oxygen) which will oxidize some of the ferrous iron in your disposable cartridge, that and any invisible dirt will discolor the cartridge.

    Since the Overdrive control valve allows you to get water through both hour glass tanks (all 4 tanks) at the same time, and it regenerates immediately when the gallons count down to 0 then you only get water through the two tanks on one side.

    That means you share your water use with the regeneration water flow to drain. That also means you are only getting water through one half the unit and that reduces the number of gpm the one tank can successfully treat. And sharing water with the regeneration reduces your pressure and flow rate. Your water use during regeneration reduces the water flow and pressure to the unit and more so with the prefilter, especially when it isn't needed. You can remove the cartridge from the housing and that will help increase your flow and pressure.

    Andy, please correct any errors in what I have said, I don't want to tell Tim something that isn't true. But don't say I'm wrong without giving details as to why. BTW, I find many Kinetico softeners undersized on the SFR. Would you (or TIM?) have a picture of the label showing the SFR gpm for his unit with the size of the tanks?

  17. #17
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Tim, you don't need a prefilter with that unit. Just remove the element from the housing. Since you are getting chunks and indications of high iron, the Macrolite filter alone will be adequate.

    The unit is rated at 11 gpm and 18 gpm peak flow rate. Peak backwash rate is 3 gpm.

    Your system is not undersized unless you are supplying an apartment building or some other great demand.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  18. #18
    Gary Slusser is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy CWS
    The unit is rated at 11 gpm and 18 gpm peak flow rate. Peak backwash rate is 3 gpm.

    Your system is not undersized unless you are supplying an apartment building or some other great demand.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II
    Really! You think an 18 gpm @ 15 psi pressure drop across the unit is sufficient for an apartment building!! You can't be serious; especially when you don't mention the number of units in the building.... I sell equipment in houses that need more than 18 gpm. I'm quoting one today with 5.5 bathrooms and 6 people with a body spray shower and a large tub. Some showers regularly flow at 15-20 gpm.

    Andy, what is the single/one tank SFR when the unit is in regeneration?

    If you are saying it is 11 gpm, what flow rate (DLFC gpm) goes to drain and you do know that we have to subtract that from the single tank SFR right? If so that means the 11 gpm is reduced when he uses water during backwash or regeneration.

    Also, since you say it is not undersized, what IYO is causing his problem is iron getting through the filter into the softener and through it when he uses water when the one tank is in regeneration?

    Because he has 8 ppm of iron and the Macrolite is only rated at 1 ppm ferrous iron, the problem is misapplied equipment.

    If the Macrolite were replaced with something to treat his 8 ppm of ferrous iron, then the unit is undersized for his demand when one half the overdrive unit is in backwash or regeneration.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 02-05-2008 at 12:48 PM.

  19. #19
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Tim,
    Sorry, someone was confused. I never implied, mentioned or stated your equipment can be used for apartments and anything like that. Don't worry about someone else's misunderstandings.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  20. #20
    Andy CWS is offline Moderator
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    Tim, I haven't heard from you lately. Since you said your water is clear of iron stains and soft, then your Kinetico is working. The tannin issue may still need to be resolved. That ferric iron is being removed. I am afraid I didn't agree that your system is misapplied, not without more information. It looks as though iot is working according to your description.

    Can you see the number on the disk through the lens?

    Perhaps the bed is not large enougn on the tannin filter.

    Let us know what is happening with your water.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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