[Resist]

We have Rayne water softener service and they replace the canister twice a month. We do this because we have no place to put a home water softener unit that would have power and a drain. So the Rayne service makes things easier.

We are also on our 3rd water heater in 10 years. Prior to living at this house we lived in a house that did not have a water softener. We never had to replace the water heater in all that time. I even drained it once and didn't see much sediment.

I read somewhere that if you have a water softener it can reduce the life of the sacrificial anode rod in the water heater. If the anode is eaten away then the inside metal of the tank is next causing it to leak.

So my question is, do water softeners really reduce the life of a water heater and if so I even bother with it?

Also, I understand we shouldn't drink softened water (not that you really can't).

I don't want to have to worry about my water pipes corroding. My water heater failing. I want to drink from the tap. Is there one system that can give me all that without its parts all over my house? What about a whole house softening/filtering system like from Lifesource?

[Andy CWS]

As with many posters, you need to be more specific in your description. What is your water source, city or well? What water tests were conducted and what were the results. Hardness? Iron? chlorine? TDS? etc.

Boy, I am not sure where you are getting your information but a (functioning) water softener will NOT shorten the life of your water heater. In fact, just the opposite happens; the water heater's life can be greatly extended. Many people remove the anode rod from the heater after the softener as hard water, which the rod designed for, is not there.

Now, you have an exchange tank that is switch out every two weeks. That makes it a very busy schedule for Rayne. But consider that each tank you recieve has been in dozens of other homes and under a wide variety of water conditions.

The chances that each tank is exhausted before they come pick it up is great. Most softeners need to regenerate between 3 and 8 days. So you may be having hard water for nearly two weeks before it is changed out. your heater serves as a storage tank for that hard water and a period flushing of soft water will not save its destruction.

If you have the space, I would put in three exchange tanks in a series and still have one swtiched out every two weeks. Switch out the oldest and move each tank to the next position, placing the new tank in the last position. How big are these tanks? 8x44inches?

The Lifesource will NOT soften water and doesn't do anything to save your heater from hardness damage. It is simply a big carbon filter with an expensive stainless tank. Carbon has many effective uses but consider what you want your water to do for first.

Why shouldn't we drink softened water? I don't particularly like it and I use an RO. Depending on your hardness and TDS, the water can be potable and acceptable.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Resist]

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

What is your water source, city or well? What water tests were conducted and what were the results. Hardness? Iron? chlorine? TDS? etc.

City, our water was never tested but I am told out here we have hard water.

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

Boy, I am not sure where you are getting your information but a (functioning) water softener will NOT shorten the life of your water heater. In fact, just the opposite happens; the water heater's life can be greatly extended. Many people remove the anode rod from the heater after the softener as hard water, which the rod designed for, is not there.

This is one place I read it, http://cid-services.com/images/water...ter%20life.pdf . There are other sites that talk about it.

Now, you have an exchange tank that is switch out every two weeks. That makes it a very busy schedule for Rayne. But consider that each tank you recieve has been in dozens of other homes and under a wide variety of water conditions. The chances that each tank is exhausted before they come pick it up is great.

I think Rayne knows how to do their tanks correctly so they are not exhausted at each house. They also know how to do their schedule and some homes get the tanks switched out more often, depends on how many live in the home as to how often the tanks should be replaced.

Why shouldn't we drink softened water?

Everything I have read suggested we shouldn't drink soft water. I think it may have something to do with residual salt content. Then again there is more salt in a slice of ham or bacon than a gallon of soft water. I do drink it from time to time but prefer bottled or filtered water.

[Gary Slusser]

Soft or hard water, the anode rod in the water heater is used to reduce/prevent stray electrical current damage; hence the name anode rod.

But... some plumbers, web sites and a water heater manufacturer or two say softened water harms water heaters. All water heater tanks are glass lined. That protects the mild steel from the water in them. Mild steel and water of all kinds don't mix well and the tank with voided glass lining always is destroyed; the water just gets rusty. That's as long as the glass isn't damaged, which is a tough thing to prevent with all the handling and expansions/contractions of operating water heater tanks.

I'm sure your Rayne exchange tank type softener works very well, and you don't have the space for anything else or for a drain line installation, so there's no reason to get into any differences in water softeners.

The formula to determine the volume of added sodium in softened water is; 7.85 mg/l per grain per gallon of ion exchange. I.E. 24* 7.85 = 188.4 mg per roughly a quart of your water; if you ingest it. On average, one and a half slices of regular white bread has the same sodium content. That can be checked out by reading the label on the loaf.

[Resist]

Okay so we should keep our Rayne softener service. I was hoping to find something cheaper as Rayne is costing us $35 a month (tank is changed twiced a month).

So soft water shouldn't make a water heater go bad early. Maybe it was just coincidental that my water heater at the other house lasted 10 years without a water softener, in a hard water area. And at this house we have replaced the water heater two times in 10 years. Our first water heater may have been the houses original one. So it may have been ready to go anyway. Then the next one was a home warranty replacement (probably a low grade unit). Now we are at the 5 year mark with a 50 gallon 12 year warranty unit. Hope this one lasts much longer.

Funny thing is, when I was a kid I don't ever remember my parents having to replace a water heater.

[Resist]

Update:

I just received an annual water quality report from my city. In it they say our city does not have hard water. Now I am wondering if I should cancel my Rayne service.

[Andy CWS]

Originally Posted by Resist

I think Rayne knows how to do their tanks correctly so they are not exhausted at each house. They also know how to do their schedule and some homes get the tanks switched out more often, depends on how many live in the home as to how often the tanks should be replaced.

Well, without knowing how many people are using water (you didn't mention that important factor) and the hardness content it would not be likely for any of us to determine that that system is sufficient to handle your water conditions. Moreover, without informing us of the size of the tank--volume of resin--it further impedes an accurate prognosis.

But if you actually believe that a single tank can last 14 days without regenerating, good for you. A local dealer in my area still distributes a large number of exchange tanks (most of which follow their timer softeners) and very often they are inadequate to do the job.

But since you are convinced your local dealer is handling it, then I am not sure how else to advise you besides what I have already mentioned. Good luck.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Resist]

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

But if you actually believe that a single tank can last 14 days without regenerating, good for you.

Rayne is a big company kind of like Culligan. We only have two people living in our house, so yes I think a single tank (36" tall, 8" wide) can last 14 days. We only use the soft water for showering, washing dishes and the toilets. We drink mostly store bought bottled water. The lawn sprinkler system is of course not hooked into the soft water canister.

Had Rayne told use we needed to exchange the canister weekly, we probably would have. So I think they were being truthful in stating twice a month is fine based on our type of water use.

[Gary Slusser]

I'm sure that you can tell if your water is soft after the exchange tank and when it gets hard. Exchange tanks work very well.

As to replacing that with your own softener, if you do not have the space, roughly 30" along a wall and 18-20" out from that wall, you have no choice but to keep paying rent for the exchange tank program.

[Andy CWS]

Well, that's good as I have said. Depending on your hardness and the actual number of gallons used you may fall within the limitations of such an approach to softening.

I know who Rayne are and even the biggest of companies don't get it all right all the time. For that matter, since they are your choice, I can only assume that you have presented this problem to them and you have not been satisfied with their recommendations. Could that be right?

If they delivered a tank every week, would your rental fee be increased? I would assume they prefer not to work twice as hard and not be compensated. So they might assure you that semi-monthly is adequate.

Do you go to the Laundromat? If not, is your washer top or front loading? And how many loads per week do you do? Do you wash dishes by hand or machine?

Sorry, I apologize for going on but as stated earlier, I have little confidence in a tank containing 0.75 cuft of resin (that may have been properly regenerated by well-seasoned staff) for normal water use by two persons to last two weeks, every two weeks and so on.

You say your city water reports that you have no hard water. That would be rather unique in my book to see city water at 0 gpg. I have seen some at low-medium hardness, but not zero. This is why accurate solutions normally follow accurate data. What is hard to some may be acceptable or even 'soft' to others.

Do you know the pH reading?

My recommendation is to contact Rayne and tell them you are not satisfied with what your water is doing.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Resist]

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

For that matter, since they are your choice, I can only assume that you have presented this problem to them and you have not been satisfied with their recommendations. Could that be right?

What problem? As I already stated their recommendation was for us to do the twice a month service based on our water use.

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

If they delivered a tank every week, would your rental fee be increased? I would assume they prefer not to work twice as hard and not be compensated. So they might assure you that semi-monthly is adequate.

Yes our fee would be increased for additional tanks per month but, since they deliver to our street practically on a daily basis one more stop would not bother them.

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

Do you go to the Laundromat? If not, is your washer top or front loading? And how many loads per week do you do? Do you wash dishes by hand or machine?

No laundromat. We use a water saving front load washer, using maybe 4 loads a week. We use a dish washer machine.

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

I have little confidence in a tank containing 0.75 cuft of resin (that may have been properly regenerated by well-seasoned staff) for normal water use by two persons to last two weeks, every two weeks and so on.

Since they deliver to other homes on our street I see no reason why they would not want to convince us that we need more tanks per month (to get more money from us) if we really needed more tanks, yet they didn't.

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

You say your city water reports that you have no hard water. That would be rather unique in my book to see city water at 0 gpg. I have seen some at low-medium hardness, but not zero. This is why accurate solutions normally follow accurate data. What is hard to some may be acceptable or even 'soft' to others.

They didn't say they had 0gpg, they just said the city doesn't have hard water. Their definition may have a range of what isn't considered hard water. I have emailed them to find out.

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

Do you know the pH reading?

There was not any mention of pH in the Annual report, just a listing of the substances.

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

My recommendation is to contact Rayne and tell them you are not satisfied with what your water is doing.

When did I say I was not satisfied with what our water is doing?

[Resist]

Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

I'm sure that you can tell if your water is soft after the exchange tank and when it gets hard.

Actually I can't tell the difference. Maybe I am used to it or maybe our city really doesn't have hard water.

[Andy CWS]

To your first and last responses:

I thought you considered the destuction of your water heater(s) was being contributed to, if not blamed on, the condition of your water. Sorry, if I misunderstood. I come across these same symptoms every week.

The city administrators are responsible primary for the 'safety' of your water and take aesthetic qualities second-hand if at all. If your water has 'no hardness', then there may be a chance that the pH is low and that can affect plumbing, fixtures and applicances.

Can you tell me the city you live in and maybe I can do a little research on your behalf.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Resist]

Originally Posted by Andy CWS

I thought you considered the destuction of your water heater(s) was being contributed to, if not blamed on, the condition of your water.

Actually what I said was I have read that soft water was the cause of water heater damage. And that at one house I lived in (no water softening) we had the same water heater for 10 years without an issue. Yet at our current house (with soft water) we have replaced the water heater twice in the same amout of time. I am not sure if soft water was the cause of the damage or the water heaters were of low quality. There seems to be conflicting information as to what is the truth about this matter. Also growing up I never remember my parents having to replace water heaters and we never had soft water.

[Resist]

I just received an email from my city. Now they are saying the annual report information is incorrect and that we do have moderate hard water. Makes me wonder if any of the info in the report is correct.

[Gary Slusser]

Reply and ask them for an actual number for the highest hardness in their entire system with the type of measurement they are using: ppm, mg/l or gpg.

Most water companies and their association, the AWWA (American Water Works Association), usually say that water is not hard until it contains 150 mg/l or more of hardness. Next to no one else agrees with that and especially their customers that use the water in manufacturing processes. Homeowners that know soft water from hard simply accept it ruining their water heaters, appliances, clothes, fixtures etc..

[Resist]

My city emailed me again, and said there was an error in the report indicating we don't have hard water. But according to the water plant manager he said the pH of the treated water typically ranges from 7.3 to 7.6 but can vary due to our 3 water sources. He also said in the 27 years he has lived here he has not had a water heater last less than 12 years, and this is without using a water softener.

They use ppm and the majority of the analyses are performed by an independent, contracted laboratory and reported directly to the regulatory oversight agencies.

[Gary Slusser]

Then have a hardness test done or buy a test kit at most any hardware store or take a sample over to Sears and see how hard the water is.

[Resist]

Here are the numbers from the Annual Report:


Aluminum (ppm) - 0.188
Barium (ppm) - 0.091
Chlorine (ppm)- 0.80
Chromium (ppb)- 7.5
Control of DBP precursors [TOC] (% removal) - 24%
Flouride (ppm) - 0.82
Gross Alpha Particle Activity (pCi/L) - 0.58
Haloacetic Acids (ppb) - 16.4
Nickel (ppb) - 2
Nitrate [as nitrate] (ppm) - 3.5
TTHMs [Total Trihalomethanes] (ppb)- 46.0
Turbidity (NTU)- 0.27


The water plant manager from my city said they could come to my house and check the water. I may have them do this. He is also willing to give us a tour of the plant, which I am really interested in doing.

[Gary Slusser]

Do you see anything about hardness in that report, I don't. So IF you want to know the hardness in your water you need to get a hardness water test kit or take a sample somewhere to have the test done.