well water help!

[jcurry]

Hi All,
I have been in my current home now for three years now, I live in Maryland close to the Chesapeake Bay. This is the first well that I have ever owned so I have been trying to get use to the needs of the well! So I’m trying to get the well to taste and SMELL better, the water some times in the morning mostly smells funky not so much rotten egg like but dirty. When we do laundry if we don’t immediately dry the clothes the get a bad smell to them. The house came with a softener and a pH adjuster, the type you add the pellets to once a year. The well also has a UV filter on it because when we moved in the well would not pass the bacteria test, but did after the UV was installed and has every time I have had it tested. So I purchased two 20” x 2.5” whole house filter units and a pressure gage (that doesn’t work with the models I bought ) I was planning on using a Liquatec SDF-25-2020 20"Sediment Filter and a Pentek NCP-20 Carbon Impregnated Polyester Filter to help with the smell and to make the water a little cleaner. I also heard that there should be a pre-filter be for the UV as well. So before I cut all my plumbing to install these I wanted to see if the filters if have chosen will work. My water parameters as good as I can remember are:
pH= 7.0
TDS < 100 usually around 70-80
Iron .3 ppm
Thanks.

[Gary Slusser]

Have you been doing the required maintenance on the acid neutralizer and the UV? That includes sanitizing the light and the plumbing and fixtures when the power goes off or at least annually. You could also disinfect the softener.

As to the filters... carbon and bacteria do not do well together. So carbon goes after the UV but if I had my way, you wouldn't use carbon.

[chaseme5]

Your test results look good. the uv light is to kill bacteria and viruses. That will not cause the problem. Check for sulfer in your water. The rotten egg smell if from sulfer in your water!
Who knows how it got there. But ground water can produce it.

[Gary Slusser]

Not all UVs "kill" viruses. And where do you get a virus test done to see if there viruses in the water or after a UV light?

[chaseme5]

I believe you are mistaken about the UV filter. For a well a UV filter is too small and will absolutely do nothing. What I believe your system has is an ozone generator. Known as O3. This will kill 99.97 % of all bacteria and viruses.
If there is a tube that comes from the uv filter and goes into your water storage tank, than you have an O3 generator and not a uv filter.

[Gary Slusser]

I have sold hundreds of UVs over the last 18 years or so for bacteria control. UV is approved by the EPA and 99% of all US States and Canada.

UV used to generate ozone is not a 254.7 nm wave length type lamp which is used for disinfection. That is not the only means used to generate ozone, corona discharge is also used.

UV used for bacteria control come in two classes; A and B. There are no class distinctions for ozone production using UV.

A UV light is not a filter in any stretch of the imagination.

[Andy CWS]

Hi All,
I live in Maryland close to the Chesapeake Bay. The house came with a softener and a pH adjuster, the type you add the pellets to once a year.

I used to live in Maryland, do you know Glen Burnie? [:-}

The well also has a UV filter on it because when we moved in the well would not pass the bacteria test, but did after the UV was installed and has every time I have had it tested.

Great results! Make sure the UV is maintained with bulb replacement at mfg's recommendations.

I also heard that there should be a pre-filter be for the UV as well. So before I cut all my plumbing to install these I wanted to see if the filters if have chosen will work.

UV require filtered water to reduce turbidity. Professional applications require a absolute 5-micron filter, These can be replaceable or washable filters. I know of one backwashing media that is certified to filter down to 3-5 microns. Is your UV a Class-A, or -B type?

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[gaindauz]

I used to live in Maryland, do you know Glen Burnie? [:-}



Great results! Make sure the UV is maintained with bulb replacement at mfg's recommendations.



UV require filtered water to reduce turbidity. Professional applications require a absolute 5-micron filter, These can be replaceable or washable filters. I know of one backwashing media that is certified to filter down to 3-5 microns. Is your UV a Class-A, or -B type?

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

What is different? and which type is better for feed water from well?
For RO System use, which type is the best?
Thanks.

[Andy CWS]

UV systems are designated by the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) to Standard 55 as either Class-A or Class-B. Class-A systems to additional measures to assure water quality by requiring certain features that assure water quality. These can include, flow restrictors (for contact time), light intensity monitors (bulb function) and water quality (turbidity/clarity) sensors. If one of these features fails or reveals water quality problems, a solenoid shuts the systems down preventing contaminated water from coming through.

Go to www.nsf.org to look up the brands that certify at this level. These are tested to maintain 40mj/cm2 by the end of a year's time (9000 hours) and a wave length of around 254 nanometers..

Class-B systems don't normally have all of these features but may have some. However, they are not recommended for pathological waters due to their lack of fail safe devices. They are tested to maintain 16mj/cm2 at the end of the bulb suggested life of 9000 hours.

B systems can be combined with other disinfection systems such as chlorination, ozonation or some chemical applications. These are normally cheaper.

These are also UV systems without any certification. I would avoid these. UV can also be used to produce ozone and produce around 180 nm.

Whether you choose a UV system or not depends on your water quality, your water condition goals, your willingness to apply the system properly and ability to afford it. It comes down to value, need and desire.


Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[gaindauz]

Thanks for the info.

[Gary Slusser]

UV systems are designated by the National Sanititation Foundation (NSF) to Standard 55 as either Class-A or Class-B. Class-A systems to additional measures to assure water quality by requiring certain features that assure water quality. These can include, flow restrictors (for contact time), light intensity monitors (bulb function) and water quality (turbidity/clarity) sensors. If one of these features fails or reveals water quality problems, a solenoid shuts the systems down preventing contaminated water from coming through.

Prior to this I've not heard of turbidity/clarity sensors on UV lights but I am not up on the latest UV lights. I've quit selling lights with intensity monitored sensors due to the sensor failing and the owner mistakenly thinks the lamp doesn't have to be replaced annually because there was no alarm.

A solenoid valve is an option, I am not aware of any UV light that has a solenoid valve as a standard part of the light. If a solenoid valve is used, it will shut off the water to the house past the UV light whenever the power to the house or light goes off. In case of fire, and on average IMO, that is not a good idea. And many solenoid valves have a manual override and the owner will set it to open/off and that negates the reason for it.

Another feature of all UVs that I'm aware of is a visible and/or audible lamp out alarm. All UVs are flow controlled internally or require an external flow control.

Go to www.nsf.org to look up the brands that certify at this level. These are tested to maintain 40mj/cm2 by the end of a year's time (9000 hours) and a wave length of around 254 nanometers..

There are many UV lights that are not certified because the manufacturer will not pay the very high charges but, IIRC, the US government controls all UV light manufacturers and sets the minimum intensity of 16mj/cm2, or at least those manufacturers manufacturing for the residential markets.

Class-B systems don't normally have all of these features but may have some. However, they are not recommended for pathological waters due to their lack of fail safe devices. They are tested to maintain 16mj/cm2 at the end of the bulb suggested life of 9000 hours.

That "not recommended for pathological ...." is personal preference, the US government says that 16mj/cm2 is the minimum all lights must produce for bacteria control in potable water. It would not be allowed if it didn't do the job the light is intended to do. That level will protect against the most probable types of bacteria found in groundwater. I would suggest a 40mj/cm2 light without the certification and expensive options as long as the price difference is not a problem.

B systems can be combined with other disinfection systems such as chlorination, ozonation or some chemical applications. These are normally cheaper. Andy Christensen, CWS-II

IMO any salesman suggesting duplication of disinfection equipment is simply wanting to increase the sale price or has little confidence in the ozone, chlorine or other disinfectant system s/he is selling.

It is very easy to determine if a UV light is doing the job, simply do an at home Coliform bacteria test or have a lab do one.

[Andy CWS]

Thanks for the info.

I sent a PM. Thanks, gaindauz.

Andy

[Andy CWS]

As I stated before, Class-A systems are designed for waters containing pathogens and Class -B systems are designed for potable waters to handle hetrotrophic bacteria which are generally considered a nuisance.

If your water has been determined to contain dangerous organisms and you choose to apply irradiation methods, then fully consider a Class-A model. Many companies make both A andf B models. Not being rated can mean two things, 1. they were not tested for some reason of the manufacturer, or 2. they failed the test, and this happens often at NSF, UL, Biovir Labs, and WQA. Testing labs keep failed test results confidential and don't release data to the general public.

Here are some of the very many sites that describe Class-A benefits and Class-B limitations. Please read and notice the absolute agreement with all professionals on the use of Class A vs Class B.

http://www.wcponline.com/ArchiveNewsView.cfm?ID=949
http://www.wasserweb.com/UV.pdf
http://www.sahra.arizona.edu/program...infection.html
http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...s/dwgb-4-5.pdf
http://www.ewswater.com/PDFs_Master/Tech_UV_Lamp.pdf
http://www.bipurewater.ca/uploads/do...ight%20NSF.doc

These differences are very important when it comes to safety.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

I've gone through all your links and I do not see anything about your turbidity/clarity sensors on UV lights.

Or anything about a solenoid valve as a standard part of the light.

You are selling people on NSF Certified UVs without being totally candid about UVs in general.

The US EPA sets the rules all UV manufacturers must abide by, regardless of your beloved NSF.

I've spent about 90 minutes at the link below, THE authority on all things UV, see if you can find anything to support NSF Certification being necessary, I couldn't find a word about it. And especially check out page 50 concerning the minimum dosage required to deactivate E-Coli and other dangerous bacteria etc.; unless I'm reading it wrong, 16mj/cm2 seems to do it.

And your comment about lamps putting out the 40 mJ/cm2 at the end of a year, not true.

Also, I couldn't find anything about your claim of a 5 micron absolute prefilter being required for UVs.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfe...uvguidance.pdf

[Andy CWS]

I've gone through all your links and I do not see anything about your turbidity/clarity sensors on UV lights.[/url]

Certain Class-A models have transmittance monitoring devices as standard equipment. That is a fact. I used "clarity/turbidity" as a generic explanation for to OP. This is very different than light intensity sensors. UV bulbs may be putting out ample wavelength but the clarity of the water may not permit it to travel through it adequately. No Class-B system is able to do this to my knowledge.

Or anything about a solenoid valve as a standard part of the light.[/url]

Solenoids are available to ALL Class-A UV systems that I am aware of, at least the ones we use. I am not saying they are required or standard unless by local codes or other by-laws/regulations.

You are selling people on NSF Certified UVs without being totally candid about UVs in general.[/url]

I am open and clear with my customers when it comes to UV systems; what they can do and what they cannot do including limitations, service life, maintenance, pre-conditioning, consequences of failure, etc. I wouldn't consider glibbly writing off Class-A sytems as being very candid.

The US EPA sets the rules all UV manufacturers must abide by, regardless of your beloved NSF.[/url]

I'm not sure what you mean by "rules" or how that can be true. I have never heard of an EPA official requiring the use of a Class-B system. You may have it a little backwards. In my experience it's the EPA that requires the use of Class-A systems (a designation founded in the NSF) in applications of public use. The NSF defines standards, set protocols, conducts tests and provided certification, not the EPA. So it does not surprise me that the EPA's link mentions nothing of those facts; it's not their job. That's easy to understand.

I've spent about 90 minutes at the link below, THE authority on all things UV, see if you can find anything to support NSF Certification being necessary, I couldn't find a word about it. And especially check out page 50 concerning the minimum dosage required to deactivate E-Coli and other dangerous bacteria etc.; unless I'm reading it wrong, 16mj/cm2 seems to do it. [/url]

Major manufacturers clearly state the differences between Class-A and -B systems, and the ones I linked to clearly state that B sytems are recommended for water containing organisms that are not dangerous or used in conjunction with other sanitation equipment. I follow these manufacturer's recommendations for the benefit of my customers. When it comes to safety, I prefer to aim high not just barely get by.

And your comment about lamps putting out the 40 mJ/cm2 at the end of a year, not true.[/url]

This is a clear fact. This is repeated numerous times though the literature, manufacturer's specs, certification protocol and is one of the most defining aspects of Class-A sytems. These tested and certified products must attain this level of performance to provide the assurance to consummers that the equpiment they use will do as expected. The EPA doesn't test for this but the NSF does. The EPA relies NSF standands in the field.

Also, I couldn't find anything about your claim of a 5 micron absolute prefilter being required for UVs.[/url]

My correction would be "nominal". I personally use NSF certified standards as prefiltration for UVs and encourage my customers to continue using them for replacements. In one of my areas, the local authorities require it at time of installation. Most manufacturers recommend five micron whether it is a gradual reduction or done singulary in the nominal rating.

[Gary Slusser]

Certain Class-A models have transmittance monitoring devices as standard equipment. That is a fact. I used "clarity/turbidity" as a generic explanation for to OP. This is very different than light intensity sensors. UV bulbs may be putting out ample wavelength but the clarity of the water may not permit it to travel through it adequately. No Class-B system is able to do this to my knowledge.

Intensity monitors measure UV-C, the mj/cm2 after the light goes through the water but name those UV brands that have your transmittance monitoring. Neither monitor will monitor the wavelength of 253.7 nm. You need to read up on UVs, try the link below.

The US EPA sets the rules all UV manufacturers must abide by. You can read all about it at the link below.

I've spent about 90 minutes at the link below, THE authority on all things UV, see if you can find anything to support NSF Certification being necessary, I couldn't find a word about it. And especially check out page 50 concerning the minimum dosage required to deactivate E-Coli and other dangerous bacteria etc.; unless I'm reading it wrong, 16mj/cm2 seems to do it.

And your comment about lamps putting out the 40 mJ/cm2 at the end of a year, not true.

Also, I couldn't find anything about your claim of a prefilter being required for UVs; there are minimum water quality pretreatment requirements set and one of them is turbidity.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfe...uvguidance.pdf

I'm not sure what you mean by "rules" or how that can be true. I have never heard of an EPA official requiring the use of a Class-B system. You may have it a little backwards. In my experience it's the EPA that requires the use of Class-A systems (a designation founded in the NSF) in applications of public use. The NSF defines standards, set protocols, conducts tests and provided certification, not the EPA. So it does not surprise me that the EPA's link mentions nothing of those facts; it's not their job. That's easy to understand.

The EPA sets MCL standards for municipal and surface water quality among all other things to do with the environment like air quality etc., and the manufacturing of UV lights. No water treatment equipment that you or I or anyone else sells has to be NSF rated or certified, only the materials it is made of must meet NSF Standard 61 for potable water use. The link below will inform you of the UV part if you'll read it. I am not speaking about an EPA official doing, suggesting or requiriing me or you to do anything.

As usual you use your terminology instead of industry standard terms and then you put forth your personal preferences rather than factual information. The facts are that all manufacturers of UV lights must meet the EPA requirements stated at the link below. At one time as they may today, the EPA did an annual visit to manufacturers' plants to ensure they did as they are supposed to per the link below.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfe...uvguidance.pdf

[Andy CWS]

UV lights come in Class A and B versions. You want a Class A. Only A
can be used for the control of cysts and crypto.

[Gary Slusser]

Now you're making it sound as if you expect to find cryptosporidium and giaradia cysts in well water.

[Andy CWS]

The US EPA sets the rules all UV manufacturers must abide by.
The facts are that all manufacturers of UV lights must meet the EPA requirements stated at the link below.

Perhaps you can point out where it says this...? I find it strange that ALL manufacturers are being controlled by the EPA. But, please indicate where that is written. I just don't have the time to search through hundreds of threads.

So could I conclude that if I, personally, wanted to manufacture a UV light system, it must be done under the authority of the EPA and they could shut me down? Is that what you are implying?

What certification process does the USEPA provide? For example, a number or code to look for (NSF has Standard 55, Class-A)? How would a consumer know that it has passed their testing or is a valid product to handle pathologically dangerous water? Who pays for this testing? Can you a send a link of a product that provides this information in their advertising?

Nonetheless, ths NSF set standards for UV certifications and UV manufactures almost universally agree that Class-B systems are intended for non-pathological waters. I can point those out to you if you wish to learn more.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

I've told you repeatedly what I know but yes, the EPA sets the standards the UV light manufacturers must abide by. None of the links you posted are from UV light manufacturers. The NSF does not test/certify ALL UV lights, and you know that.

I see the link to the EPA I posted is not working now. Note that the title of the .pdf file is EPA UVGuidance.pdf (I have saved it on my computer, there are two versions, 1999 and IIRC 2001)

When clicking on my EPA link to that file, you now get a message saying:

Please inform the administrator of the referring page, http://www.filtersfast.com/forums/wh...ater-help.html (well water help!) , that the link from that site is broken.

I'm not about to find the file again but anyone interested can find it by searching for its name on the http://www.epa.gov/safewater site etc.)

Do you still think crypto and giaradia is found in well water?

Here is something I found at the EPA just now:
Targeted protection for over 70 million people served by ground water
not disinfected or receive less than 4-log treatment.
Avoidance of 42,000 viral illnesses and 1 related death annually.

You can read all about the new Ground Water Source Rules here;
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfe...fs/grg_gwr.pdf

And here's the biggie on UV:
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfe...uvguidance.pdf