Well Water Help

[weshope]

Hello,

I'm trying to help my parents clean up there water at their lake cabin. The biggest complaint is the Sulfur smell that is very strong when the water is first turned on. The smell never really goes away, but varies in intensity. I have had the water tested and here are the results:

Color: Clear
Odor: None
pH: 7.5
Iron: 1ppm
Manganese: 0.05ppm
Tannins: N.D.
TDS (total dissolved solids): 453ppm
Nitrate As N (NO3) <0.5ppm
Hardness (CaCO3): 26gpg

The test shows no sulfur present, but the smell is definitely there. I here we can chlorinate the well, but this sounds like guesswork to me. I want a system that will remove the iron, manganese, hardness, and the rotten egg smell. I'm looking for suggestions. There are a few companies that say they have what I need, but I don't know who to believe. There several different medias used and I don't know which ones are good and why. The prices of these systems is all over the board. I just want one that fixes our problem for a reasonable price and requires minimal maintenance.

I don't know off hand what kind of flow rates we get from the well, but I can run a gas powered pressure washer for 3 hours with no problems. When looking at filter performance specs treatment numbers and backwash numbers don't make sense to me.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Gary Slusser]

One piece of equipment isn't going to do it. And to explain all the different choices etc. etc. etc. is too much to do in a post. A correctly sized softener will take care of the hardness and treatment for the H2S will also remove the iron and manganese.

I don't see any bacteria test data... is there any slime in toilets tanks at or below the water line?

[weshope]

The one toilet in the cabin has a lot of dark staining below the water line, but the tank does not feel slimey. It goes from like a dark brown to almost black in color below the water line. I think this is the iron and manganese causing this.

[weshope]

I have been reading about a media call Filox-R. It is supposed to remove iron, manganese, and hydrogen sulfide. Can I use this type of filter with a softener to fix my problems?

[Gary Slusser]

I suggest greensand+. That would be in a backwashed filter and then a softener for the hardness. I suggest using the Clack WS-1 control valve on both.

[weshope]

Do you have a recommendation on specific models for a backwash filter and softner? Who is a good source to buy from? Thanks.

[Andy CWS]

Hello,

I'm trying to help my parents clean up there water at their lake cabin. The biggest complaint is the Sulfur smell that is very strong when the water is first turned on. The smell never really goes away, but varies in intensity. I have had the water tested and here are the results:

Color: Clear
Odor: None
pH: 7.5
Iron: 1ppm
Manganese: 0.05ppm
Tannins: N.D.
TDS (total dissolved solids): 453ppm
Nitrate As N (NO3) <0.5ppm
Hardness (CaCO3): 26gpg


I don't know off hand what kind of flow rates we get from the well, but I can run a gas powered pressure washer for 3 hours with no problems. When looking at filter performance specs treatment numbers and backwash numbers don't make sense to me.

Any help would be appreciated.

Weshope,

With your water results and expectations, I would recommend a twin-tank softener and an aeration system. This will give you continuous treatment of water with minimal operating costs.

AERMAX (http://pwptx.com/aermax.htm) is a very good system at removing iron, manganese and sulfur odors problems without chemicals such as potassium permanganate (which can be very messy) or chlorine.

This aeration system is placed before the twin tank softener and can be set to backwash at varying periods of time. It is easily adjustable. Some systems use a venturi as a means to inject air; others require an air pump if conditions are worse or worsen.

I have installed many of these as a means to handle water exactly like yours or much worse. When I make physical call-backs to retest systems and examine plumbing, occasionally some adjustments may be needed but I have never had to remove or replace equipment.

Hope this helped a little.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

Greensand+ does not require regeneration with potassium permanganate, chlorine or anything else, just backwashing.

I sell everything I and Andy mentioned, although I do not suggest a twin tank type softener; you can check anyone's profile by clicking on their name on the left.

In an infrequently used cabin, you want as little equipment as possible and an air injection or air pump system has many more parts than a backwashed only iron/H2S filter. I've sold many air pump systems and I strongly suggest you don't use air injection.

[Andy CWS]

You mean GreensandPlus, right. How long have you been selling these? Have you actually installed and monitored one, personally? So no chemical feed is ever used in these greensandplus filters?

[gaindauz]

Is the Greensand+ have service life?
What is the affect if the feed water have no/bit iron or mangan contained (consider good water), can it make feed water become "bad"?

[Andy CWS]

Is the Greensand+ have service life?
What is the affect if the feed water have no/bit iron or mangan contained (consider good water), can it make feed water become "bad"?

GreensandPlus will have a very short lifespan without some type of regenerate like hydrogen peroxide, KMnO4, or chlorine, It will become fouled and the bed will need to be replaced, I believe. If you are using potassium prmanganate as the regenerate, make sure it is completely backwashed out.

I don't even recommend it as a sediment filter.

As for the actually media unloading chemicals into the water, it is NSF-61 certified so I assume it is safe. In part:

NSF/ANSI Standard 61 Drinking Water System Components - Health Effects is the standard that establishes minimum health effects requirements for the chemical contaminants and impurities that may be indirectly imparted to drinking water. The standard provides the criteria used to evaluate the public health safety of materials, components, products, or systems that contact drinking water, drinking water chemicals, or both.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Andy CWS]

Is the Greensand+ have service life?
What is the affect if the feed water have no/bit iron or mangan contained (consider good water), can it make feed water become "bad"?

I am afraid there was a mistake in that GreensandPlus just backwashes itself with out any assisting oxidant. Becareful about using this media with that in mind. Not to worry though, mistakes can be made. It was probaly a misunderstanding in application.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

Is the Greensand+ have service life?
What is the affect if the feed water have no/bit iron or mangan contained (consider good water), can it make feed water become "bad"?

All minerals have a service life, the same with resins in a softener, oil in your car engine and the oil and air filters etc. etc.. All media and the tanks etc. etc. that are in contact with water are safe for potable water use.

[Gary Slusser]

GreensandPlus will have a very short lifespan without some type of regenerate like hydrogen peroxide, KMnO4, or chlorine, It will become fouled and the bed will need to be replaced, I believe.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Since you have to ask about it, and say "I believe", it's obvious that your sales experience for Kinetico does not provide you with a well rounded knowledge and experience with many other minerals or equipment used by the rest of the water quality improvement industry. The rest of the industry is many times larger than Kinetico and has been around 2-3 times longer than Kinetico.

This reminds me of your description of my inline erosion pellet chlorinator. You were wrong about it, it is erosion as defined in the last link you provided. And it's strange that you believe my mixing tank will block up when your "accelerator" doesn't. You obviously don't know that they are basically one in the same. And you keep making these silly mistakes as illustrated here by talking about things you have no experience with.

[Andy CWS]

Since you have to ask about it, and say "I believe", it's obvious that your sales experience for does not provide you with a well rounded knowledge and experience with many other minerals or equipment used by the rest of the water quality improvement industry. The rest of the industry is many times larger than Kinetico and has been around 2-3 times longer than Kinetico.

This reminds me of your description of my inline erosion pellet chlorinator. You were wrong about it, it is erosion as defined in the last link you provided. And it's strange that you believe my mixing tank will block up when your "accelerator" doesn't. You obviously don't know that they are basically one in the same. And you keep making these silly mistakes as illustrated here by talking about things you have no experience with.

Well, clearly you decided not to reply to the point in question (maybe elsewhere or another time). Typical. Instead you continue to make false assumptions. But, you said that the Greensand Plus needs nothing to regenerate –“just backwash”, right? I hope you haven't been telling your customers that.

Secondly, you keep bringing brand names into your rant as if to cause some disturbance or bother. Not very adult.

Thirdly, yes, the pellets erode; I have no problem with how that method is applied. I was questioning the term “straight erosion” which I can find nowhere in a Google search as concerns to which you are referring. But look for “Pellet Feeder” and presto—there’s your unit. Strange how that works out, isn’t it. No misunderstanding there.

But you continuously say it is not a "pellet feeder" when, in fact, that is what it is and what the manufacturers of the product call it (note the sites I referred). So where’s the misunderstanding, Gary?

Fourthly, the accelerator that we use can easily be removed and cleaned by the owner if clogging becomes a problem without a great effort of extensive re-plumbing. A by-pass can be set so that even if you remove it to clean, you are not without treated water. Also, since it is clear, you can monitor it and make observations. I agree with one of my distributors (Nelsen) on this point, as they fully understand what is sellable and what causes callbacks.

Moreover, I used the term of, "I believe" not as a matter of doubt but more to coax you into replying. Obviously that did work but you decided to neglect that point in case and, instead, harp on the superfluous. That's OK, I'm sure it will come up again...

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

..., yes, the pellets erode; I have no problem with how that method is applied. I was questioning the term “straight erosion” which I can find nowhere in a Google search as concerns to which you are referring. But look for “Pellet Feeder” and presto—there’s your unit. Strange how that works out, isn’t it.

The OP said "straight erosion", he explained to you that I didn't say that but here you misrepresent it that I said it.... Your reason for that is obvious.

But you continuously say it is not a pellet feeder when, in fact, that is what it is and what the manufacturers of the product call it (note the sites I referred). So where’s the misunderstanding, Gary?

Andy, again, it feeds chlorinated water, not pellets, a pellet dropper feeds pellets. None of the links that you put up are from the manufacturer. I buy directly from the manufacturer. When you mistakenly called it a pellet dropper, the OP, Darrin Ginther, corrected you, and here you are again with more misrepresentation....

..., the accelerator that we use can easily be removed and cleaned by the owner if clogging becomes a problem without a great effort or re-plumbing. A by-pass can be set so that even if you remove it to clean, you are not without treated water. Also, since it is clear, you can monitor it and make observations. I agree with one of my distributors (Nelsen) on this point, as they fully understand what is sellable and what causes callbacks.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

See, again, you don't have personal experience so you must rely on a sales rep at your supplier that repeats to you what some guys that obviously didn't do it right complains about. And then you repeat the gossip with no first hand experience of your own...

On the other hand I buy from the manufacturer and have been selling his inline erosion pellet chlorinator and mixing tank for about ten years. BTW, with a special version of your "accelerator" in it; why do you call it that when no one else does?

I have never had or heard of any blockage, and OMG the tank doesn't have a bypass, do you think I should add one? That's with roughly 60 sold just online in the last 5 years and some with very high iron. Like I said, you selling for a Kinetico dealer is limiting your experience. For 20 years I have been hearing MANY guys with solution feeders say they absolutely hate them; most don't get them to work.

[Andy CWS]

This forum is not the place to discuss another forum's quotes. If you want to discuss this further go back to that forum. I'll meet you there. Thank you.

[John J CWS VI CI]

The GreensandPlus media HAS to be regenerated or the unit will NOT work.
http://www.inversand.com/product.htm

Weshope,

There was no sulfur in the tests, but the water smells. Is it both the hot and cold, or just the hot? If only the hot, the anode in the water heater may be the problem. If both cold and hot, I would first try disinfecting the piping before investing money on equipment you may not need ... especially for a cabin which I assume is a vacation home.

If that takes care of the smell, then you could simply get a softener for hardness, iron and manganese. An RO will address the TDS and nitrate for the drinking water ... but this all depends on the use the cabin will receive.

John J CWS VI CI

[Andy CWS]

Greensand+ does not require regeneration with potassium permanganate, chlorine or anything else, just backwashing.

Hi John, nice to have you on board. Thanks for your input.

Although GreensandPlus (tm) is an improvement over standard greensand, it still needs a regenerant to function properly. Simply backwashing it is a big mistake. Sediment filters and some pH neutralizers are among the types of filters that 'just backwash'.

Since it works as a catalyst and 'holds' what it converts from the water, simply backwashing will do little to release those contaminants. Eventually, the media will die and the unit will become useless.

It seems your advice on the odors is also very sound. Why not try the simple, inexpensive way first?

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

The GreensandPlus media HAS to be regenerated or the unit will NOT work.
http://www.inversand.com/product.htm

John J CWS VI CI

John I guess Andy has recruited you to help him out on various forums, he may regret that when people see your troubling shooting abilities compared to his. Anyway, I can't find where at the link you provided that it says GreensandPlus must be continuously regenerated in a POE residential application. I had a spec sheet on various similar products showing a comparison between Greensand+, Filox, Filox-R, Pyrolox and greensand IIRC, maybe it was something else, and although I thought I saved it in pdf format I can not find it and have looked twice. It said regeneration was not required.